Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Here are some major ones I have 1. If the way to find the truth of the the church, BOM, BOA, etc is to pray and you will receive a witness, how do I account for the fact that every religion says that and most people get the answer that their church is correct. What is the difference between the devout Muslim and the Mormon. They both prayed and got an answer. So how can one church be true and the other not.
2. If my eternal salvation in so contingent on my performance in this life why does god make me live so much by faith. If he really was going to assign me to some lesser kingdom based on earthly performance could he at least communicate more directly to me that I was in trouble?
3. Why is it that an emotional feeling is suppose to be more powerful than logical thought. Why must I set aside science and reason to make the cosmology fit and then depend on a warm fuzzy to carry the day?
4. If modern day revelation is so important why is it that we get no modern day revelation? Sorry the Ensign and New era do not count.
5. Just how does polygamy work in heaven. Doing the math I still find about a 50/50 spilt men vs women. So what, are a bunch of men going to be kept out to balance the equation.
6. Why is it that some people no matter how hard they try never get a witness that they feel was an answer?
7. If tithing brings blessings why are so many mormons in Utah declaring bankruptcy? (this one may be a bit of a stretch)
8. Why did that seminary teacher in high school tell me their were no dinosaurs (OK I just threw that in for fun)
I could think of about 50 more but my point is there are lots of questions but very few answers other than just believe and have faith. I wished that worked for me.
You should stay because it helps the rest of us. I do not hold with the notion that people leave because they feel they do not fit in. It’s not that I am 100% sure the church is true but I do know it has good that you can benefit from. My biggest concern however is when people with different viewpoints keep leaving it just strengthens the emotion driven testimony junkies that are left. If we really want a church that is more open and tolerant we have to stay and make it that way. I do not agree with your politics by a long shot but I know we a stronger with you than without you. Stay around make some members nervous and uncomfortable it is good for them. I personally attend all my meetings and I do it on my terms. I contribute where I can and participate fully. I am not disruptive but I choose carefully where to make my point of view heard.
We all can make a difference if we choose to.
If I am not completely comfortable with all the church has become I am not sure I really want to be the conduit for others. Perhaps we will never know if Joseph practiced polygamy or not. The fact does remain however that he taught it (section 132), and Brigham ran with it. So wherever it came from we are left with a legacy that has perpetuated to this day where in certain offshoot Mormon sects young woman are indoctrinated from early that they are to be subject to men generally older men. They are virtual salves. They have no free will because it is the only life they have ever known. How do they choose differently. All the while the church acts like they have no responsibility for what is occurring in these sects. Perhaps current members do not have any responsibilities for the sins of former members, but unless we are willing to stand up and say it was wrong and move on we continue to support it. In fact we still practice it today. As far as I know a man can be sealed to multiple women in the temple as long as only one is living at a time. I for one think it was wrong and find the whole business regrettable. Think of the legacy it has left us with as a church. If you can find good that came out of it I will listen. So many have tried to state reasons like it helped the church to grow etc. I am pretty sure however the reason was sex. Sorry to rant so much, but it is frustrating to see a debate rage about Joseph and his culpability when it really does not matter now since we lived it and do not deny it, and even promote it as being from God. With so many good things about the church this continues to be lead anchor that drags us ever downward.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:My conclusion is use faith to get you over the hard spots in life but use your intelligence to get you through the day. Sort of opposite of Mormon culture I know.
Um, fwiw, I think that is perfectly consistent with what I see as pure Mormonism – and what I have heard preached from the pulpit most of my life in all of the wards and branches I’ve attended. (“commanded in all things . . . slothful servant” – “study it out in your mind” – glory of God is intelligence” – faith without works is dead” – “put your shoulder to the wheel” – “all the best books” – etc.)
Perhaps you are correct.
I read a quote sometime ago, which I wish I could remember where so I could reference it, but it went something like this. Faith begins where science, history, and reason can no longer explain events. Faith is not to be use to make science, history and reason conform to any specific dogma.
I am sure I butchered the quote, but the point is faith is only valuable when you have exhausted all other options. When you have studied, contemplated and reasoned the truth. I really believe faith is simply an extension of the God given intelligence we were given by the creator himself. I can have all the faith I want that the moon is made of cheese, but that does not make it so. A more classic example may be something like the earth is 6000 years old, or there was a flood that covered the whole earth, or dinosaurs never existed. These are all things I was taught as fact by a seminary teacher many years ago. I had faith that they were true, until I studied geology in college and had to reason that the evidence did not support having faith in such concepts. Even Alma in the BOM says you can only have faith in things that are true (Alma 32:21).
My conclusion is use faith to get you over the hard spots in life but use your intelligence to get you through the day. Sort of opposite of Mormon culture I know.
I have always been intrigued by NDE’s, but like other events they cannot prove the existence of an afterlife. The non believer would say it is just the way the brain works to cope with traumatic situation. It is interesting to note a couple of similarities between these experiences. First most people tell how someone was there to meet them. Some go on a small journey others do not, but they generally have some kind of guide. Some say it was Christ. some a family member or some other messenger. The second point is it is not a constant. The Buddhist or Muslim never sees Christ, thus coming back to state their conversion Christianity. They see someone from their earthly experience. Could be Allah or some other religious figure. Not really sure what it all means but obviously these experiences are never to convert you to another religion. Like small miracles that happen they seem to be of most benefit to the person who experiences them.
Sometimes our expectations of what parents should be does not fit with the parents we have. I had parents that were completely into their own interests and their children were subservient to those interests. Yet they fed me, they clothed me, and I know they loved me. I am very content that I was able to grow up in the home I did. It could have been so much worse. My brother tells an interesting story from his mission from back in the 60’s. One day during a zone conference a youngish apostle named Gordon B. Hinckley was visiting the mission and as custom let the Elders ask questions. My brother being the unorthodox man that he is posed the question “What do you do if you are told to do something by your leaders that you know to be wrong?” His answer after some thought was “you had better make sure you are right”
Not your standard jump of a cliff if you are told to answer that I got 20 years later on my mission.
Salvation for the dead seems a strange concept to me. All the promises/covenants we make in the temple generally relate to living people. Consecration, chastity, etc. Are these really issues that dead people are concerned about. Also why are we in such a rush to get all this work done. If every Mormon went to the temple every day I am not sure you could keep up with just everyone who is dying on a daily basis. It seems an uphill battle. I have been wondering what I will say at my next interview. I have the same concerns about committing to the leaders as prophets, seers, and revelators. I have decide that when ask those questions I will first ask “please define what a prophet , seer, and revelator is” Once I get their definition I can respond as to whether I believe it or not. Besides it will be interesting to see what their answer is. Maybe I will find they are not so different than mine. Hawkgirl wrote:I disagree that’s why – the reason is because at a point in time, the WoW was “reinterpreted” and then voted into “commandment” status. D&C 89 clearly says “not by way of commandment.” The church deliberately adopted it many many years later.
So are you saying that they knew they were changing the original intent of the WOW. If so why?
How do you really know that burning, or quickening, or inspirational thought is really the spirit. It could just as easy be your own thoughts telling you what you need to hear. I ask because I have had two major experiences in my life where I was absolutely sure the spirit was giving me direction. I believed and followed the direction. I got up in fast meting and told the ward of the great spiritual witness I had received. A week latter the exact opposite happened to what I had been told by the spirit. I am not saying the spirit does not communicate to individuals its just that I can never really depend on what I hear it say. It could just be me since I am a skeptic by nature. Here is an interesting clip from the movie Joan of Arc that makes you think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3LLY3jdAIo&feature=youtube_gdata I have come to understand that true inspiration is using the intelligence that God gave to you. Reason and intellectual thought can be just as effective as any spiritual witness. Thats not to say that reason always gives you the correct answer but neither does prayer. You just need to do your best and use the brain God gave you to understand your place in the scheme of things.
