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nibbler wrote:
The Saturday afternoon session is just a bad session. I’d recommend skipping it entirely.
I’m glad it’s not just me. I felt like I was doing pretty well with the first session, but during the second session I started going downhill and feeling either more guilty and depressed or more angry (e.g., the abortion talk you mentioned).
🫤 DarkJedi wrote:I understand your concerns about therapists. Sometimes non-member therapists are very appropriate and sometimes they’re not. I don’t know where you live and you don’t need to disclose that if you don’t want to. In the Mormon Corridor there are some non-member therapists that do understand the church and the nuances involved with members. In the Corridor there are also member therapists who are familiar with faith crisis and are able to work with people in faith crisis without being judgmental. Of course, finding these therapists is the trick. Good non-member and member therapist exist outside the Corridor as well, but finding them is even trickier – but keep in mind Mormons are not the only ones who have crises of faith.
Unfortunately I don’t live in “The Corridor,” so I feel like it’s a little harder for therapists to fully understand the situation if I were really to share it in full. When I was trying to talk about it with the therapist I used to have, I kind of just talked about it as a faith crisis in general. Some of it was helpful, but it was still kind of hard not being able to talk about things in greater detail. That’s part of why I’m so grateful for you guys—people who know, understand, and can talk about both sides of the situation. So thank you so much for being here!
DarkJedi wrote:Stay away from the Jodi Hidebrandts.
Haha, true that!nibbler wrote:
You mentioned Fanny Alger. Do you ever find it funny that we can find so many issues with Joseph Smith’s personal character that it calls into question his ability to channel revelation yet at the same time we place a great deal of faith in his revelations about the particulars of attaining a specific afterlife?Stated differently: How do we know what the qualifications are to enter the celestial kingdom? Through Joseph Smith.
Okay, but he got polygamy wrong didn’t he? What if he was wrong about the qualifications to enter the celestial kingdom as well.
AmyJ wrote:
It seems that there is a lot of “cognitive dissonance” going on for you about a lot of different topics (which is what defines a faith transition actually).Both of you have hit it quite on the nose here. As I look back and read it, it looks like my introductory post gives a good representation of the split personality (so to speak) / cognitive dissonance I’m often experiencing.
I feel like I flip flop between two different versions of me in my mind.
I think part of the challenge is that my former self wasn’t just a member of the Church but I was an EXTREMELY active, dedicated, devout, believing member. I was that hyper-obedient, scriptorian, member who had a strong, burning testimony to share nearly every fast Sunday or Sunday School class; who had been a dedicated family history researcher since I was a teenager; that go-go-go, full-of-faith missionary who saw some of the most baptisms out of everyone in a very low-baptizing European mission. And the gung-ho missionary attitude continued post mission, and I was super involved with every behind-the-scenes element of serving in my ward(s) and with the missionaries. I even had a blog sharing my gospel study insights. And I loved it all. It made me so happy and full of life and spirited. It was probably 90% or so of my personal identity.
But with that 90% stripped away, who am I? Then the new me started immerging and it was everything opposite of the old me; everything the old me tried to prevent and fight against. And that old me still frequently whispers in my mind.
Part of me still believes and remembers all the things I considered to be strongly spiritual experiences and miracles or tender mercies. So that’s the part that thinks, “The scriptures say that what comes from the prophet comes from God; so polygamy and the degrees of glory are from God, whether I like it or not, so I just don’t like and disagree with God and therefore will be punished by him.”
Then there’s the new part of me that thinks, “Joseph Smith came up with polygamy on his own, so who knows what else (perhaps everything?) he came up with on his own. So it’s all just made up anyway.”
Either situation makes me wonder why I even bother going to Church. I wish I could just take some time away from church like some of you have mentioned, but my husband is in the bishopric, so I’m the one bringing the kids to church and I have to keep up the image that things are just as they always were. I don’t think my mental health could take the disappointment, pressure (well-intended I’m their minds), and persecution/harassment from friends, family, parents, in-laws, etc., that I’ve witnessed for others in my family who have stepped away from the Church.
I guess the old me especially gets reanimated at church, hearing all the familiar dialogues and I just feel ashamed and guilty that I’m no longer living up to that and being the “ideal” person I once was.
I guess I just need to figure out how to switch off that old self so that I keep going to church (that’s the goal—”Stay LDS,” right?) without feeling that personal connection that believes it’s all true and feels guilty for not living up to my old expectations of myself.
DarkJedi wrote:For me, letting go of the fear and guilt associated with the church or some church teachings was extremely freeing. Not everyone is able to do that.
What steps did you take to let go of that guilt? I’m a very easily -guilty person and need all the advice I can get on this front.
And how do I stop feeling angry about the judgmental comments surrounding the celestial kingdom, eternal families, “the covenant path” and all that? Even when I don’t necessarily believe those things, it’s still hard not to feel angry/depressed about the judgmental/exclusive remarks and how they refer to me and my amazing sister. I think I get subconsciously protective and defensive of her. At the same time, if I’m going to stay LDS like I want to, I need to figure out how to get rid of those feelings so each time I go to church isn’t miserable. (Sorry for the long ramble; it’s late and my brain is kinda all over the place; hopefully I’m kind of making some sense.
😛 ) Thanks again for all your input. I’ll respond to some of the other points later.Thank you all for your responses and also simply just for being here on this forum. Roy wrote:
1) Please do whatever you can to preserve your mental health. I don’t know what that looks like for you. Maybe talking to a counselor, maybe taking a break from the church meetings that make you feel that way, maybe just be scheduling extra “me” time doing what soothes and relaxes you.Thanks so much for your kind concern, Roy. That means a lot. I’m doing my best to try to preserve my mental health—which was already poor, even before all this. I’m on the highest dose of Zoloft and use a SAD therapy lamp in the mornings, but I still have my challenges on that front. I had been seeing a counselor for awhile, but I still didn’t feel like I could fully open up and talk to her, because she wasn’t a member and wouldn’t quite understand all the things I wanted to talk about. I worried she might try to encourage me just to leave the Church and/or my husband. Eventually I stopped meeting with her. At the same time, I don’t know if it would work to talk to a counselor who IS a member, because they might not be aware of the historical issues I struggle with and think it’s just false, anti stuff and not understand where I’m coming from. I think just being able to open up and discuss things here will help be therapeutic for me.
Roy wrote:
2) My journey has led me to the conclusion that I get to decide if I will be with my family in the next life. This is probably a shocking statement but it is true for me. I know that my family relationships will endure and that is not dependent on how great I am at doing church stuff. I am personally focused on being a good husband and father such that, if given the choice, my family would WANT to be with me forever. I feel secure in my relationships with my God and My family.3) Joseph’s revelations did not arrive dictated perfectly from God. There seems to be a fair amount of “feeling it out” and mental/emotional work to put the feelings down into words. I believe that some of what ended up on the page was a result of Joseph’s imagination, some his bravado, and some his desires. I think that Joseph developed a worldview where God was leading and speaking to him and this led him to Emma and to other important milestones in his life. He trusted his feelings to direct him in the things that he should do. Then he starts having feelings for Fanny. What does that mean? Why would God put those feelings there? Joseph wants to follow God. In pondering these things, Joseph is also thinking about OT prophets. If God and his moral standards are the same now and forever and OT prophets had multiple wives while still being holy men maybe that’s ok. Or maybe even God is trying to tell Joseph that having multiple wives is a HIGHER form of righteousness. Joseph prayed about it and came out with a revelation.
I do not have perfect knowledge of Joseph. I feel that my explanation of his introduction of polygamy fits a majority of what I consider to be evidence but I do not claim that it is the only interpretation. My explanation/interpretation provides me with a mental framework/narrative where polygamy was not commanded from God. It also attempts to be charitable to Joseph and those early church members in feeling that they were restoring God’s true church. They experimented with a few different things, some things worked well and some things didn’t. I can take the good and discard the bad.
Wow, thank you SO much for these insights! They really truly resonate with me. The idea that I get to choose to be with my family or not almost brought tears to my eyes. And I really like that mental framework / narrative regarding polygamy and also Joseph’s mode of revelation. That really sits so much better with me. Just curious, how do you personally view the first vision and other visitations/revelations like that in light of this framework? Do you personally believe that the first vision did in fact occur but that other written revelations were often more in the way that you described? Or what are your thoughts on that?
