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The reason I signed up on this site is because I felt very comfortable with the mood or spirit that seemed to come from reading everyone’s thoughts and opinions. I posted because if I felt cynical at that particular moment I could express it and feel safe and not judged. I like that. I feel cynical at times and it comes from many different sources including the church, GC, leaders and my own moods or thinking. I have noticed that many of the people who post here have been very respectful of other opinions and have shown a lot of support for all us trying to find our own way. I have been wondering this whole week if some of the talks at GC has been having a negative effect on us because it has once again made us question our participation on this and maybe other boards. Because on this site we are trying to stayLDS we are torn for doing this. I have asked myself if I am sinning because I’m not exactly following my leaders like I have tried to do all my church life. My heart tells me I’m doing ok and I need the openness I can have here that I can’t have at church or with most of those I love. I have a HC meeting tomorrow morning and the assignment we have is to discuss GC and how it has effected us and how we can use it to help the stake. I am torn between saying how great it was and wow 18 year olds can now go on missions or telling them that I am a little (maybe a lot) upset with some of the talks and if we want to help the stake and the young people we need to be more Chist like and less church like. Hopefully you know what I’m talking about. That’s the way I’m leaning right now. There seems to be something happening here and I hope we can also more supportive of each other. Quote:Exactly, it would be one thing if they could actually show all the inactive members and lukewarm cafeteria Mormons they were trying to single out specifically why they should repent of all these supposed mistakes with more compelling reasons than simply because the scriptures and Church leaders said so. What will happen if all these “lost sheep” don’t repent and how exactly do we know this? The scriptures and Church leaders have already said all kinds of things that are impractical or apparently wrong after the fact that no one pays any attention to at this point so what makes this official list of LDS expectations so special and important compared to everything else?
In conference I also repeatedly heard the chain of reasoning that if you love God and Jesus then the next steps are to “keep my commandments” and “feed my sheep” (John 14:15, John 21:14-17). I can easily give this idea the benefit of the doubt until we get down to what exactly Church leaders try to pass off as God-given “commandments” and worthwhile service. The problem is that I just can’t imagine God or Jesus really caring that much about some of this. I could see asking people to help those that are less fortunate, visit lonely widows, etc. where it is not always convenient but at least something you can feel good about but how much does strict tithing, temple work and family history, home teaching and other callings, missionary work, etc. really benefit others on average as opposed to mostly being about trying to reinforce, perpetuate, and spread Mormon traditions at all costs?
Thank you. I now feel validated from some one in Utah. You have made my day.
Quote:How do you remain “steadfast and immovable” during a trial of faith? You immerse yourself in the very things that helped build your core of faith: you exercise faith in Christ, you pray, you ponder the scriptures, you repent, you keep the commandments, and you serve others. Have these things helped, hindered, or had no effect on your faith crisis
Exercise faith in Christ – Helped.
Pray – I have found it much harder to pray, in part because I haven’t felt a lot comfort when I do and in part I don’t know if some of the answers I received in the past were as inspired as I thought they were at the time. I really want to believe God answers prayers but I’m very confused about His answers at times. Example, my Dad is not doing very well at all and his quality of life is going down at a pretty steady rate. Do I pray he gets better, when the issues he has just don’t as his age? Do I pray he is in no pain, but the burden of living is not what he wants? Do I pray that he dies, which I can’t do right now? I don’t know what to pray for as far as my faith crisis is concerned. Is the BOM REALLY true this time? Help me accept the BOM as inspired? What is real? Seriously, what do you guys pray for as far as your faith crisis is concerned?
Ponder the scriptures – I read fairly often but always in the back of my mind I’m thinking is this stuff made up, especially many parts of the D&C. I would say hinder or no effect right now.
Repent – For pain I cause others. Helps For things that I’m not sure Gods really cares about like tithing on gross or net, aspects of the WOW, having doubts, not doing 100% HT every month, the M word, not following the Prophet on every aspect to the letter, for wearing a blue shirt to conference, for not doing family search stuff. You get the picture. Some things I not sure if I need to repent from any more. That type of repenting probably hinders me right now.
Serving other – Helps a lot.
Good questions!!
Devilsadvocate said Quote:Church leaders are definitely well aware of disaffected members like some of us because they specifically talked about less faithful members who read less-than-flattering things about the Church on the internet and how this affected their testimony and level of commitment to the Church and in some cases they ended up falling away completely. Also, Jeffrey R. Holland repeated the idea that picking and choosing what parts of the “gospel” you agree with is supposedly not the way to go. Personally, I think their dismissive and unsympathetic reaction to this trend of more cafeteria Mormons and vocal apostates than in the past was not very uplifting or inspired at all.
Their dismissive and unsympathetic reaction not only does not inspire me, it also makes me sad and a little angry. I can understand that they need to be careful but still…..Elder Holland came to are Stake and in one of the meeting said that the church(the Brethren) appreciates all the service we give even if its not all we need to do. That made me feel pretty good and I thought it was time they recognize that many of us are doing the best we can.Quote:Basically they lump together members that have gone through a faith crisis together with all the Jack Mormons and the general idea is that if you are not completely on board with everything the Church teaches for whatever reason then you are automatically wrong and need to repent. That’s what stood out the most to me about this conference; I heard several different leaders all asking members to repent of various supposed mistakes such as doubts about the Church’s story, “bad” habits (M-word?), lack of commitment, apathy, etc. Have they ever considered the possibility that maybe less commitment and zealotry could actually be a highly appropriate response to the Church’s demands and realistic ability to deliver on all the promises they make as far as we really know for sure? I doubt it; most of these talks I listened to sounded like the product of extremely selective tunnel-vision heavily focused on one side of the story.
I’m going through a faith crisis but still I do my callings on the HC and my HT, I treat my wife great and love my fellowman and even have some “bad” habits (m-word?) when needed and I don’t feel like I need to repent because of these things. I am far from perfect but I’m still doing a lot for others around me and I think I am a pretty good guy. Doubts are not sins.
Quote:One problem with these calls to repentance is that this is simply not going to happen in most cases. It’s hard to blame people too much for instinctively feeling like some of this is not nearly as important as the Church acts like it is. Whether people don’t really like the strict and austere active LDS lifestyle or don’t really believe the Church’s story or both the truth is that this is probably never going to change at least 9 times out of 10 once people are already set in their ways. If they want to argue that this uncompromising approach is still worth it for the sake of the few that actually do return to full TBM status (scorched-earth policy) I don’t believe that either because it basically creates a judgmental and intolerant environment that makes it hard for active Mormons to live with or get along with non-Mormons or less faithful members as well as possible. This harsh approach also severely limits any truly positive influence the Church could have when people basically stop listening and don’t want anything to do with the Church anymore.
I just agree with everything else you said.
I am kind of at a lose right now. Telling me to repent just wants me to dig my heals in deeper and I am not normally like that. You see, the thing is I want to stay, I think it makes a difference for me and also for those around me. The church has helped me to become a type of person I want to be, the kind I need to be, so different than the person I probably would have been. I recognize this. I need God and I want to need the church but I want them to need and want me for who I am and for what I believe. I can deal with some of the church history issues if they just let the chip fall where they will but the church has to let me have some of my issues also. I think locally that there is a lot of acceptance of the cafeteria mormons(I live on the west coast) but It would be nice if the same attitude came from the top.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.
Think back about the salamander letter, didn’t the church pay a lot of money for it before they found out it was a fake. Are only the leaders allowed to look at the history and dole out what we need to know. This again is just a gut reaction and I am really trying to stay positive. So will they start telling the girls that all are now expected to serve mission like they have been saying to the young men for years? I was also wondering about that extra year after HS were the young people whose parents wouldn’t or couldn’t pay for the missions are suppose to pay for their missions. That is what I had to do when I went 35 years ago. I have had three sons go on missions and they didn’t pay for any of it. I’m not sure they would have gone had they had to pay for it. I liked that I saved my own money to pay for my mission but I really do think it was easier to do that back then. Now that girls can go at an earlier age will that mean more will go and now parents have to start saving more so that they can pay for missions, college, and a wedding. I thought that having daughters I could count on them to get married and not necessarily going on a mission too. Wow, a bad economy, new mission payments, college, weddings, tithing etc, I hope that between the church and my kids I will have some one to take care of me in my old age. How do the parents in 3rd world countries do it? Brian Johnston wrote:If God wanted the world to be different, then He should make it different. Otherwise, I must assume it’s functioning as intended. I extend that to most things in our life experience. It would be VERY easy for God to clear this whole religion question up — really really simple. He could appear to everyone and answer all the questions.
That hasn’t happened, so I have to assume the Big Guy’s okay with a little diversity of opinion and serving different needs down here.
I don’t think everyone is destined to be a member of the LDS Church, or stay in it. That’s OK. People should follow the Spirit and their own heart to the adventures that will make their life rewarding.
That being said, I think a LOT more people could be members, and a lot more members who transition in their faith could stay.
Brian, I couldn’t agree more. I just want you to know that I really connect to a lot of your comments and appreciated all the work that you monitors do. You commented on a recent post that some times all the pain we express on this board gets to you and I realize that must be hard seeing how you guys have been doing this for years and you have your own issues too. I just want to says thanks.
Thanks guys for the feed back. When the Brother was talking about the Salamander letter, my wife, who is very much a cafeteria Mormon, but doesn’t want to know any thing(right now) about the difficult issues looked over at me with this “pay attention” look and said something like the internet not always right you know. I just smiled back, but I was thinking that it isn’t always wrong either. On my own, you are correct in what you stated. The stake is in charge of the MP as noted. I would first approach the HQP and HPGL as a courtesy not only to them but out of respect to the office of the bishop, if not the man himself and also to not ad to the SP’s load and I try to resolve issues at the lowest levels possible. But again if you don’t get the answers you need I would talk to the SP. I’m truly sorry that your bishop is not the “caring” type at least when it comes to this matter. That makes it a lot harder. Would he have more luck talking to the EQP and HPGL directly and working it out there. If this is just some what uncomfortable for your husband maybe this is a chance for him to grow but if it’s a big deal I would start next with the EQP and HPGL and then move up the chain of command, via the stake president. Or if he his not comfortable doing either one of those just have him ask the HPGL if he can attend his class for the next lesson or so just to get the feel for the class and group of men. Anyway, I hope things work out. I have had bishops that I thought were very uncaring in certain aspects and I know how that can effect a person. Ray I agree with you. I have heard several times from members of the Stake Presidency how much they appreciate my views and that the ways I talk about mercy as opposed to justice is a good reminder for them. I will always strive for mercy when I can. I wasn’t always like that but now that I’ve been bruised a time or two I glad that I have changed. I have found when I am honest and forth right with my kids and let them know that I don’t have all the answers that when I have fallen off one pedestal I usually land on another one. It’s not the same one but still they know that they can trust me and that I am alright too if they have questions or doubts or aren’t perfect. Your kids think that they want perfect parents but when they get older the will be glad that they have parents who trusted them enough to let them see all sides of you. Didn’t most of here feel anger when we found that the church wasn’t 100% honest with us and we felt like every thing was white washed? I think people can deal with the truth better than deal with untruths being portrayed as being true. Just my opinion. Be careful for what you wish for. All kidding aside, if he would be more comfortable with the HP just talk to your Bishop and if he is any kind of caring leader he shouldn’t have a problem with him attending. We have had several Elders attend with our HP. I do know that they use to make older guys HP but they stopped doing that years ago. They found that the Elder quorums were running out of leaders because every one was being advanced. I know that in a few wards some HP have been asked to help and attend the EQ because of such unequal numbers. Somedays I don’t want to be an American or a husband or a father or an employee or a church member and I take time off from all of those for a short time and that is just what I have to do to stay healthy but in the end I know that I will miss them or they will miss me so I never take too long of a break. Some times I’m just not very good at all the above mentioned items (usually not at the same time) and I’m pretty much OK with that. I mostly try not to burn any bridges. Welcome roadrunner, I too have served in a couple of Bishopric and I’m now on the High Council and it it difficult at times to be true to your own feelings and also support all the things that are taught at church. I have many of the same feelings and misgivings that you mentioned. Last month in my HC talk I told about my conversion and about my parents who are/were alcoholics and that I thought that the WOW was something that was probably a good thing for me because I might (do) have a predisposition to alcoholism but that in my opinion drinking without abusing alcohol is not necessarily wrong. I told how the BOM has changed and helped my life but I could not in good conscience say it is true or the most correct book on earth. Even though I am on the “inside” as far as leadership I really feel on the outside most of the time. I know that I can’t change the church but I also get some comfort knowing I can bring a little more balance to my small piece of it. I also love BYU football (class of 85) and I too know it is not about church but some how I still expect them to have a higher standard the the rest of the nationally recognized teams. Go figure.
