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President Monson puts 8% less focus on “Redeeming the Dead”! Three-fold mission of the church becomes four-fold, right?
I really like adding “Helping the Poor and Needy” to the mission of the Church. That sure makes us seem more like Christians, doesn’t it?
If you look at the four-fold mission, only one quarter is dedicated to connecting us to dead people (assuming the folds are equal, which nothing says they are).
So, if we wondered which is more important to us right now, the living or the dead, who could argue for the dead? That being said, I agree that geneology is more than just finding dead people to baptize. Most people feel something learning about their connections to the past. Something about that draws us in… some of us more than others.
I have enjoyed the new family search records system, which makes it MUCH easier to prepare an ancestral name for temple work and hopefully will begin to fix the massive mess of temple work record keeping. I have been a little amazed by the poor record keeping we’ve done in the past. I discovered that my wife’s grandfather had been baptized eight different times in three different temples. That didn’t even include his first baptism, at eight years old; he was never excommunicated, but was a lifelong member. I was also amazed finding a somewhat famous ancestor had been baptized over 30 times. He probably kept getting ex’d in the Spirit World. This made me wonder about all the names I’ve proxied through the temple. Were they real people? Were they already members? Was that the 20th time their name had been used? Was this why I usually never felt much of an uplift when doing temple work? Kind of takes some luster out of the experience.
But, temples are for us, I think… more than for our dead. I’m not convinced our dead need to be baptized in temples, if they need to be baptized at all. I still believe, however, that it is a rewarding experience for me to get baptized for a dead relative, especially ones I knew personally.
We are drawn to our past. And, if there is a choice between “helping” an ancestor and helping a stinky, filthy, poor person we’ll often pick the one that doesn’t require us to get dirty. But Pres Monson says we should help these poor people… not perfect them, but help them. Cool.
Do we start with easing the 10% tithing burden on members who cannot afford it? heh.
Those that do, get asked to do more. Those that don’t, eventually don’t get asked. Just Me is a do-er, obviously.
I worry that far too many people in our church are AFRAID of turning down a calling or saying no. I’ve heard too many boast that they’ve never turned down a calling and wear that like a badge of honor. Maybe that is something they can be proud of, I don’t know. But, speaking as a person who has been in on the discussions of whom to call, as well as the calling or asking part, I can say for a surety, testify if you will, that these callings often come about after prayer and pondering, but just as often do not. It sometimes seems like a poorly managed business of assigning and reassigning people to positions, filling holes with the primary intention that everyone has a job to fulfill. I do think it is far too monumental a task to expect bishops and his counselors to make sure every position is perfectly suited (in some way or another) for the person who is called to accept it. And, those that have been involved with this church for a long time understand that some callings are great and fulfulling, while other callings are terrible. This system that we use doesn’t always work to put us in the callings that will bring us spiritual uplift, joy, and happiness. So, what do we do? Maybe we teach ourselves how to make the best of things. Maybe we teach ourselves that it’s OKAY to say NO when a calling doesn’t feel right. AND, maybe we look at EVERYTHING we are asked to do in this church through a FAMILY FILTER. Those issuing callings should always do at least that–consider how the calling will affect the family of the individual, and LISTEN to the individual.
I would worry that if Just Me and her husband went on the Pioneer Trek, they would not have time for a FAMILY vacation, since husband would have to use his vacation days for the trek without his kids. To me, that would seem like a no-brainer… have to say no, even if you want to go. Look at assignments at callings through the family filter.
I’ve joked before that ward members should sign up for jobs they would like to do. Wouldn’t that work better for many things such as scouts, nursery, cub scouts, music leaders, youth, primary? If you get anyone signing up to be Bishop, however, just shoot them because they are bull moose nuts.
But, I think the idea has merit. Many wards have info sheets members fill out to tell about themselves and what interests they have. Just add a line asking them where they’d enjoy serving. Then… LEAVE them in the calling long enough for them to have a positive effect (or until they say enough!). I remember one ward I was in… one of the bpric counselors called me in to talk to me, indicated they’d prayed about it and knew I was the right guy to be the priesthood pianist or ward pianist or choir pianist or some kind of pianist, I forget. I laughed and told him that I don’t play the piano. He seemed taken aback and asked me if I was sure… yeah, I can play some chords on the piano and know where the notes are at, but I can’t play the piano, I’m sure. You don’t want me as a pianist, but if you want a priesthood guitarist, I’m your guy. This bpric counselor had read my info sheet saying that I enjoyed music and played guitar so I guess assumed I played piano too. They tried to fill a hole with a guy without a calling (or the Lord confirmed it to them that I was the right guy). Maybe I missed my chance on becoming a pianist. Damn, I should have accepted. What was I thinking?! Where was my faith?
Re: George Washington story. Although the young physician in training had a good idea to get the president to breathe, and although he might have understood that the blood letting was killing him faster, no one at the time really had much idea of how to really heal him. A tracheotomy would not have fixed the fever or destroyed whatever bug was killing him. He likely would have died even with the tracheotomy, which might have delayed the acceptance of that new life-saving technique for many more decades. A tracheotomy was better, but not best. Bottom line, the real cure for his ailment was unknown to mankind at that time. Good things, truths, are revealed or discovered a little at a time. Lots of mistakes occur in the early stages of any system, of any business, of any venture, of any church. It doesn’t mean the early efforts were not sincere or genuine. It doesn’t mean that God wasn’t part of the early equation.
BUT… Will a system as large as this church adapt and change with evidence that there are better or more effective ways of doing things or viewing things? In a large measure, the LDS church has dramatically changed their ways of doing business. I think what we’ve focused on has also changed and adapted. Will the church change basic core values and ideals? Change their stance on homosexuality? I don’t know. What if a mutation “gay gene” is found that “proves” a fraction of individuals are wired with a biological press toward homosexuality? What if this leads to same-sex marriages legalized throughout the world? Will the church ever knowingly allow such people to be baptised? I could conceive that happening. Would this mean the world influenced the church, or that the church adapted and developed normally in the face of increased knowledge and information? I don’t know.
Would there ever be a gay general authority? wow, that stretches the mind!
I like the story of the Dalai Lama (and I might not be remembering this exactly right) when as a child observing the moon concluded that some of the long-held Buddhist beliefs about the universe did not fit with observable data. Therefore, he changed or adapted his beliefs to fit the data. I think that is a good example for all religious leaders. The Dalai Lama did not give up Buddhism or conclude that his religion was wrong, just that some ideas needed updating.
When I was quite young in the church I paused at the scripture saying that it was “not meet to be commanded in all things” in a book with a lot of commands inside of it. Lots of commands, but we really didn’t need or shouldn’t have a lot of commands. Huh? When faced with such a dichotomy, one usually takes the easier path. Okay, so I don’t really need to be commanded all that much. So, I focus on the ones that seem important to me (or is it the ones that are easy for me?) and don’t worry so much about the ones that don’t seem so important. It became obvious to me early on that some commands were mostly seen as “suggestions” and essentially ignored by many members (e.g., eat meat sparingly). Therefore, I sort of got the idea that not everything commanded was necessarily all that important. But, I noticed that there sure were a lot of commands or directives or “ways we do things” that were treated as if they were commandments.
There was a time in my life that these little jots and tittles annoyed the heck out of me, but now I mostly smile or laugh at them.
I really like Ray’s and Brian’s thoughts on this subject, but I did think of something else. What about commandments as faith testers or faith builders? Abraham was “commanded” or “told” to sacrafice his son (I’m not assuming this story is literal, but we have it as an example of obedience nonetheless). Obviously killing his son was not a good or right thing to do. Yet, Abraham complied until the angel stopped him at the last minute. Today, Abraham would be arrested, but the scriptural story is meant to teach what? Obedience? Following a directive from the Lord results in huge blessings even if we don’t understand the whys and hows? “I know not, save the Lord commanded me.” Do it cuz I said so, and then I will bless you.
Sometimes we tell our little kids similar things, right? Our little ones just can’t understand all the ins and outs and wheretofores of a particular directive; we just need them to obey for their sakes and safety and happiness. We know better than they do. We don’t ask that they “study it out in their minds”, we just ask that they do it… and do it now… Now… I SAID NOW!! Did Abraham ponder and pray on this directive and receive spiritual confirmation that the idea was from the Lord and not just because he himself was irritated at the little turd? Did he need to receive spirtitual confirmation? Would he if he tried? I don’t know. But… Adam’s words, “I know not, save the Lord commanded me” have to be considered, I think, in any LDS conversation about commandments.
Ray said this (I don’t know how to make the cool quote boxes): “In the end, for me, it all boils down to the commandments on which all others hang. If a rule helps me feel closer to God and my fellow mortals, I “obey” it. If it actually makes me feel further from God and my fellow mortals, I don’t.” I wondered what were some of the rules or commandments that made Ray feel further from God and his fellow mortals?
Are there rules or commands that we need to obey that do not (for the time anyway) make us feel closer to God or our fellow mortals? I don’t know. Would our faith, charity, and love for God and fellow mortals increase by obeying a command we did not completely agree with or understand? I don’t know.
But, as LDS members we get a huge amount of this cause-effect teaching, indicating that every commandment has a blessing attached, so obedience to any and every commandment brings a particular blessing. It then follows that every command, no matter how small, is geared to bring us blessings. So, here are some more commandments or directives or “challenges” from our leaders with promises of blessings. Are they good for us?
I like Ray’s attitude and ideas of being “out there”. I also try to remember not to look at all this stuff so categorical, which really limits our abilty to enjoy the journey, in my opinion. I do understand that it can be really difficult not to fall back into that categorical viewpoint, however, particularly when it’s time to renew a temple recommend because some of the answers require pretty categorical responses. I guess, in that case, maybe one could just choose not to renew and still hold to the part of the church they wanted to experience. I’ve also often wondered about how many LDS people out there feel and think some of the same things I do. I am “out there” enough to see I’m not alone in some of my “out there-ness” but I there is still a good deal I keep close to the vest. More than once I’ve thought about that Emperor’s New Clothes story and wondered if maybe a few of us just started saying something, more would admit that they too wondered why the guy was naked. I wish I could climb into the brains of church leaders and see what doubts and dissonance might be bouncing around their gray matter.
I like being reminded of Wirthlin’s orchestral example. Does Ray really play the sax? I do too, so maybe that’s why I tend to agree with a lot of his ideas. But, I’ve commented for years that if there are no guitars in the Celestial Kingdom, I’d probably be more comfortable somewhere else. Of course, there ARE no guitars in an orchestra typically, which is yet another subtle way to disparage and discriminate against that wonderful instrument (this is my not so subtle way of complaining about church leaders who have a thing against guitars in sacrament mtg, ha!). I have never in my life heard of a STEEL guitar being used in Sacrament meeting, but I think that’s just about the coolest thing ever. I’d cross ward boundaries to attend that ward. I hope my father-in-law is getting to play the steel guitar in heaven… in some really cool bar with no smoke.
Interesting thread. Other “evidence” us Mormons are forced to consider regarding Jesus Christ is this (paraphrasing): “After all those other testimonies of Christ, here is ours… He Lives! We know because we saw that son of a gun, err, Son of a God… sitting on the right hand of the Father, and there was a gold street the color of amber or gold or something very shiny and bright and we weren’t drinking anything or smoking anything when we saw Him. Yep, we saw Him alright, He is a real person and he looks like a man and this is our testimony.” –Joe and Sid.
And Mormons don’t just think the NT testifies of Christ. What about the OT? What about Ezekial? Now, he probably WAS smoking something, but he gives a pretty cool testimony that goes something like this: “Dude, I saw Him and it was like FOUR dudes, dude. Four faces, I swear, dude. Like one was this Lion, cuz he’s like the King you know like the Lion is king of the jungle, and then an EAGLE, dude. I swear… think about it, dude, cuz he like flies between heaven and earth and he’s not the main God dude, but he’s like the Mediator dude that we have to go through to talk to God and everything, I know NARLY, huh, dude. And then one face was like a big ol’ ram… no, not like a Ram Charger, dude, like a SHEEP, man, like they use to sacrifice… sacrifice, get it, dude? He sacrifices for US, dude, I’m telling ya. Or maybe it was an Ox… dude, I can’t remember but it was like something you sacrifice. And the fourth face was like a man, dude. A MAN… cuz, man He’s a man, he’s real, dude, I’m tellin’ ya. Four faces, ONE dude. Far out. Pass me the pipe, dude.” –Zeke
What about the Brother of Jared? He wanted to make some rocks light up so Christ gave him the finger.
As for me… I like Jesus to be a real guy. He’s much better than Santa Claus.
Admirable resolutions! I like charity because it “never faileth”. I’m wondering if that means that charitable acts and service prompts more acts of charity and service, so becomes self-perpetuating.
Once charity starts, it cannot be stopped completely, but will grow.
I like that concept.
This has been an interesting thread to read. I also applaud Heber for his willingness to share this stuff as well as his attitude. Some thoughts that came to mind as I read. Bishops, or any church leaders, will usually (not always) follow the script. Problem? Read scriptures, pray, go to the temple. Recent convert? Get them to the temple as soon as possible. I’m not meaning to take away the value of those activities, but timing is certainly a factor and problems are NOT always remedied by those stock, sunday school answers (unless the only evidence you consider are occasional testimonies or what someone spouts in sunday school). I realize I’m preaching to the choir with that thought.
Another thought that came to me was what did Heber DO at the temple? Did he just go do an endownment session? There are many things one can do at the temple and the different activities often have different feelings and experiences attached (at least to me). Several years ago, I admitted to myself, then eventually to others, that I really didn’t like going to the temple most of the time. For me, going to the temple did not increase my testimony. Rather, it generally decreased it. BUT, I did have some nice experiences at the temple and felt spiritually uplifted at times. When where those times? When I was there because I wanted to go for a particular reason… maybe to get baptized for an ancestor that I’d researched and found, maybe to take a child to do some work. I’ve heard people say that they receive answers and spiritual guidance while at the temple. That really hasn’t happened to me, even though I’ve tried. But, I have felt good being there sometimes. Not always, though.
So, maybe a suggestion to Heber is that if he decides to go again to the temple, try a different ordinance activity, or even better, try finding a family name and going through with that name.
A few years ago I let my recommend lapse because I wasn’t really interested in going regularly. Well, the Bishop called me in, probably thinking I needed to repent. I went ahead and got it renewed that night then told myself I probably needed to keep it active if I wanted to avoid discussions of why a member in otherwise good standing wouldn’t care too much if his recommend wasn’t current. Besides, I do want to go sometimes, so it’s nice to have, I guess.
The atonement has always been somewhat difficult for me to get my head all the way around. On one hand, it’s a relatively simple idea and concept, often beautiful in its presentation via the church. On the other hand, I don’t think it has ever resonated strongly with me like other concepts, ideas, and teachings of the church. So, while I’ve studied it, taught it, preached it, and argued for it, the atonement, which is one of the core concepts embraced by Christians, has not been one of those ideals that keeps me close and feeling secure. The atonement opens the door for resurrection, makes eternal life possible, brings hope and comfort to distressed souls. Why doesn’t it resonate stronger with me? I don’t know. It’s not like I haven’t accessed the repentence process. I kind of like LaLaLove’s ideas on the lessons and symbolism of the atonement and how it has led him/her to a better life of service to others.
I also reserve the right to change my mind about anything I’ve said or will say. ha.
Regarding thinking and feeling: We’ve generally thought that all thought (as well as feelings) origninate and are experienced in our brains. Swimordie mentioned that “… our lives are essentially experienced through our brains…” I think this is an erroneous assumption. I think our lives are experienced through the cumulative makeup of our essence (call it body and spirit, or soul, or whatever you want). I don’t want to discount the miracle of engineering between our ears that makes all the physical existence possible, but do want to mention some evidence that perhaps there are other important organs involved in the WHO and the WHY and the HOW of us.
How about Electro Cardiology? Cellular memory?
What about the way-cool research of Gary Schwartz and others who accidently discovered that subject A’s EKG pads could pick up the heart wave of subject B in a different room? This was the “duh” moment when researchers realized “of course” the distinct and unique electro-magnetic wave generated by a paticular heart beat spreads out in limitless fashion across the world. What about the subsequent research showing clear indications that some people can detect disruptions in the wave pattern of those they are familiar with, those they love? They “feel” that something is wrong, or out of balance… or that there is a “disruption in the force”, sort of like star wars. Could this be the communication mechanism for what we refer to as “spirt” or “spiritual promptings”? Maybe the heart has more to do with feelings and communication than we thought? Maybe there is a reason the heart was traditionally the organ connected to love? Maybe some of our ancestors had it right or close to right when they surmised the heart housed the soul? Maybe the heart is the organ most closely conjoined with the spirit?
Again, not to take anything away from the brain. Brain, you’re the bomb. I just wanted to bring up that there is evidence we probably literally experience our world with more organs. Maybe the brain is so powerful that it’s difficult for us to “feel” or “hear” what the other organs are saying?
What does this have to do with the topic? I don’t know.
Maybe the right questions are not questions. Maybe the right question is … listen. Listen with your whole body.
Re: Away in a Manger. Ah, it was just that although the cows woke him up they didn’t make him cry. I didn’t take that as an infant who never cried, but that this kid was calmer than most and didn’t cry that particular moment (probably because he was posing for the song). The lowing of cattle didn’t bother him, though. I can believe that. Now, what about the braying of donkeys? That’s completely different. Had the donkeys brayed when the song was being written we’d have this line:
“The donkeys are braying, the poor baby blubbers,
then screams in his manger, which wakes up his mother.
‘It’s your turn to rock him’, she says to her man.
‘And while you are up kill that ass if you can.'”
I liked your post, Valoel. I feel I am in a very similar place. I just discussed with my wife tonight that I don’t think I could serve a proselyting mission again… maybe a service mission. Thanks for all the kind comments and support. Ray, I agree and “rebellion” wasn’t exactly the word I was looking for because it’s so often pejorative. I really don’t want quiet rebels… and cautiously obedient didn’t sound right either. I guess it’s a normal and natural progression that when you come to a new place of knowledge or belief that you want your loved ones in on it. But, many of them probably aren’t ready for it yet. I agree with your model and have basically have been doing about the same thing as you. I have probably fallen short on allowing them their own growth and taking time to listen better when they express the normal kid complaints about church stuff (e.g., “I don’t wanna go!”). In the past, I’ve been more the dictator saying, “Get dressed, you’re going.”
What’s wrong with Away in a Manger? Other than it has about a dozen versions. One of the older versions has always been one of my favorites (but not because of the words, heh). I do think the church has wrecked some pretty good songs, but have certainly improved many others (look in Methodist or Baptist Hymnals and compare). I don’t know why I’ve bounced to hymns in this post but I have to say that I think “I Believe in Christ” is a terrible hymn (again, not because of the words). I don’t pay as much attention to the words in songs, I guess.
LaLaLove, yes I want to be in a happy place too. Mentally, physically, emotionally, spirtitually, psychologically. All of the lly’s.
Speaking of happy… Merry Christmas, happy holidays everyone. Wishes and prayers of happiness and health to you all.
Rix, I meant exactly what you said. Rather than “follow church standards”, I’d rather my kids learn to follow gospel or Christ-like standards (or maybe we should say “goodness” ideals and moral, ethical values from whatever source). I agree that church societal customs or norms do not always follow logic, good sense, or Christ-like values. Most of the times, yes, but not always. I would like my kids to have the faith, confidence, and sense to be able to stand up against something they feel is not right. But how does one teach quiet, sensible rebellion whilst my actions show “Daddy’s just another good member obeying the commandments and fulfilling his calling”? Maybe this is where Fowler’s developmental stages is helpful. I’m at a different place in my spiritual development and faith than is a teenager or a child. For now, I try to keep the windows open by asking interesting questions during scripture study, promoting a tolerant and loving attitude toward those “non”members, and keeping the focus on the blessings of service and moral behavior. If my kids don’t complete all the primary, YW, or scout award requirements I’m not going to make a big fuss. I know most of the goals of those achievement awards are designed to help kids become better humans, but I also know that those pamphlets are not the only road to get there.
