[conflicted testimony]

Joni wrote:

Old-Timer wrote:

It tells us absolutely nothing, since your mother-in-law is wrong. That is not a church-wide policy.

I’m glad to hear that. Maybe it was just a Utah policy or specific to the temple she was working at (I forget which one, Timpanogos maybe?)

Quote:

From my conversations with abused women, there are a lot of men out there that simply do not deserve the role of priesthood holder in the family, yet they have it, and it seems to be held over the woman’s head. It is yet another way to keep these women downtrodden. In all 3 cases I have seen lately, the male still holds a TR, attends the temple, and the woman is encouraged to stay with him – regardless. 1 lady ended up in hospital after being beaten in front of the children, another took his female “friend” to a temple session one week and his wife the next. One, after she left, had a woman come up to her in church and ask how she could possibly leave such a good priesthood holder and did she realise what she was doing to her and her children’s eternity. Makes me wonder what a man has to do to lose that esteemed priesthood status. Also makes me wonder what the counsel to the husband would be if the wife did those things.

Conflicted, I think part of the problem is that we do a really, really bad job of defining unrighteous dominion. I think every woman should know what unrighteous dominion is starting with maybe the Beehives. Out of all the RS lessons I’ve heard about how wonderful the priesthood is and how we should sustain the PH holders in our home, I’ve only heard unrighteous dominion brought up once. And that was because I was the teacher! I was shocked at how few women have a working definition of unrighteous dominion but we absolutely should know what is and is not okay from a priesthood holder. I remember one woman commenting that she believed it was totally fine for a man to boss a woman around because that’s how it was done in her home. It wasn’t until her marriage that she realized there was any other model available. That makes me sad. I’m raising a son and two daughters, I need to know what to tell my son to do and my girls to expect, but there’s a total lack of dialogue about it in the Church.

I agree – unrighteous domain should be strongly taught to all at church, male and female. There should also be strategies taught to deal with it. I was often left sitting in church hearing how wonderful the PH is, how we should always sustain the PH holder, etc, while thinking “well that is all carp in my situation”.

Here’s one example: FHE, I am giving what I think is a really important lesson for our family and husband is acting like a child, teasing, poking, prodding the kids and making a mockery of it. Yet we are supposed to sustain the PH? The kids are taught that. So what do they do – follow their father – it is much more fun that spending 5 – 10 minutes on a boring lesson from mum about respecting each other. He also behaved like that during sacrament. It is not exactly unrighteous domain like the cases of abuse I mentioned of course.

Context: husband grew up in the church, ha a strong testimony of the church, just doesn’t want to follow the commandments.

It’s all roses in the church when everyone is doing the right thing (or appears to be), when someone doesn’t there are no coping strategies available.

So from my perspective, the temple teachings simply don’t work. I am sure there are a lot of other women in worse situations than mine both in and out of the church).

[conflicted testimony]

This was the big one for me – women in the temple, and the role of women. It wasn’t until I went to the temple that I realised how bad it was in the church.

From my conversations with abused women, there are a lot of men out there that simply do not deserve the role of priesthood holder in the family, yet they have it, and it seems to be held over the woman’s head. It is yet another way to keep these women downtrodden. In all 3 cases I have seen lately, the male still holds a TR, attends the temple, and the woman is encouraged to stay with him – regardless. 1 lady ended up in hospital after being beaten in front of the children, another took his female “friend” to a temple session one week and his wife the next. One, after she left, had a woman come up to her in church and ask how she could possibly leave such a good priesthood holder and did she realise what she was doing to her and her children’s eternity. Makes me wonder what a man has to do to lose that esteemed priesthood status. Also makes me wonder what the counsel to the husband would be if the wife did those things.

I am by no means a man hater and I know there are a lot more good men than bad, but this view of the roles of men and women in the church is creating an environment where the bad can flourish.

Of all things that could be considered wrong with the church, it is this issue that caused me to finally leave. I cannot and will not let my girls grow up in an environment where they are considered “less”. My son (13) had a bit of an attitude problem as it is, I can only imagine how much worse that could be if he started to hear that he was better than women (and that is what he would hear!).

[conflicted testimony]

I suggest you watch the movie Fireproof.

I tried to get my husband to, and perhaps find a way forward. I even followed the steps myself towards him, unfortunately it doesn’t seem to work in reverse. So it may work for you? Even if it doesn’t you have made a good effort to save the marriage.

I truly believe that marriage should be forever and every effort should be made to keep it together. Of course it requires 2 to want to keep it together for that to happen and there are circumstances where it probably should be abandoned (Abuse, Adultery and Addiction are the big 3).

[conflicted testimony]

Alex, I hope I don’t offend you with what I am about to post. I thought I would share my issue with my husband and maybe shed some light on how your wife could be feeling. This will be hard for me as I am waiting until after Christmas/New Year to take action and leave the marriage.

My husband gambles, he has been through counselling – it is a very serious issue. He has almost bought us to ruin. Whilst the gambling can destroy us, that is not what puts the strain on the marriage, the biggest problem is the deceit, lies and lack of trust.

He says he wont do it again, he knows the consequence, he tries to hide it, he lies about it. I find out. He promises to ever do it again, there is a period of calm and the cycle starts all over again. I feel like a dog that has been kicked over and over and still comes back for more.

I was devastated that he would lie to me. If he lies to me about that, what else does he lie about. I start searching further and start finding lies in things that perhaps aren’t lies. He bought golf clubs without discussing it with me or telling me – I see an amount gone from our account from the golf club where there are poker machines, I instantly jump to the conclusion that he is gambling again. Huge fight ensues, I simply don’t believe him about anything anymore. I also find lies about things he doesn’t even need to lie about because we are in such a precarious situation. He thinks that is helping, all it does is put another nail in the coffin.

Because of the constant lies and cover ups over the years my distrust of him is huge, it has totally changed and perhaps destroyed my love for him. I want to love him, but every time I open my heart I find another instance of lies and deceit – whether real or imagined – and my heart hardens just a bit more – even if he is innocent because I know I can never feel safe with him again.

So it isn’t the act of gambling that will cause our marriage to break down, it is not that one sin/fault, it is the actions and feelings around it. I wonder if your wife feels somewhat similar?

Maybe in your case it is not just the Wow that is the issue. Is your wife willing to give it one last go and try counselling? Maybe that will bring out the real issues and maybe you will have a chance. Though you would both have to change in some way and make compromises, and that will be hard if you both think you are right.

Of course your situation is totally different to mine, your life is different, your wife is different, your culture is different and this may be of no relation at all, but the take away message could be to look further than the superficial Wow issue.

As an aside – do not use an LDS counsellor if you do manage to get to that point. My Bishop at the time of the worst of it, when I had consulted a divorce lawyer, counselled that I should forgive him and it wasn’t reason to end a marriage. I think DH took that to mean I would continue to forgive him forever and we almost lost the house.

[conflicted testimony]

I can see why people leave church and drop friendships as well. I am finding that a lot of the time the only thing we have in common is church!

However, I do have some lovely friends and have been bought to tears by the words of a few (in a good way),

1) One friend organised afternoon tea via facebook, I originally replied yes, but thought about it and sent her a note telling her we had left the church and that if that makes things uncomfortable for her or anyone else then I will change it. Here’s her response:

Quote:

Thank you for your message Conflicted but our friendship is not based on our religious choices. You are my friend because of who you are – a beautiful person that I enjoy spending time with. I am so glad you are coming to the afternoon tea . I know some members may act strangely but I don’t believe we understand christ’s doctrine if we ostracise people because they are making different choices. If that does happen know that it is not because of you it is because of them and usually fear is the basis of their decision to act weird. Love ya guts Conflicted and look forward to seeing you on Tuesday. Xx

2) Husband won a ham just before Christmas, we already had one, so I called up a friend with 5 teen boys and not a lot of income. She was very appreciative. She also said that she heard we had left and hoped nothing changes between us and we have arranged to meet up in the new year. I am glad she bought it up first as I don’t want to be forcing friendships where there may have only been contact due to church,

3) The RS President called around with some fudge and offered similar sentiments to the other 2 ladies.

4) YM president had not been informed, he called today to invite son to camp next week. When I told him he was a bit speechless and offered any help if required and hung up. He called back afterwards and said that he was a bit shocked and hoped he didn’t appear “short” with me. He said that it was more of a boys camp learning survival skills rather than a church camp and son was very welcome with no pressure.

The fact that YM President didn’t know makes me think we haven’t been discussed n council yet, so I believe he is genuine rather than “love-bombing”. Bit odd that he wasn’t informed, especially as son was Deacon Quorum President.

That’s the hard part about leaving church, I really do like most of the people.

I didn’t go to the Ward Christmas party, it is still a bit raw with us. We are planning on holding our own pot luck dinners at home to catch up with people in a more relaxed environment.

I missed the Christian Christmas this year and read on another site where they had gone to a different denomination for a Christmas service that was totally focused on the birth of Christ. I think we will do that next year, and at easter, as I just didn’t get the spirit without going to church.

[conflicted testimony]

I thought it was just me!

I have suffered bad headaches over the years, I have identified what I think are the causes (eye strain, neck strain, hormonal, stress, lack of sleep etc).

Since giving up taking the kids to seminary, they dropped off substantially – from every day to once every week or so. Since giving up church I have been almost headache free.

[conflicted testimony]

Thanks for your perspective everyone. I’ll admit I was thinking quite selfishly and not thinking about contributing to others!

It’s interesting that I no longer consider myself “LDS”! I was filling in a form today for enrolment to a new school for son and I was unsure what to put for religion. I ended up putting Christian. It made it just a bit more real.

We are still doing prayers of thanks for the food and for our family, and still using the LDS prayer format, mostly because we don’t know any other way. I am ok with that. I have also still done personal prayers.

Saturday we have lunch with DH’s active member family. I have decided to not participate in any church based discussion, if they arise.

Coming up to christmas is quite busy, so I don’t expect to have too much time to do too much, but after Christmas I will be looking for more volunteering assignments outside the church. I am a stay-at-home-mum and find I need to be out there making a contribution to society, I will be able to spread myself further afield than church activities now.

[conflicted testimony]

Unfortunately, our experience was all negative, so don’t read further if you only want positives

We stopped going for some of the reasons others have stated. My girls went from lovely, pleasant teens to grumpy, miserable sods. The school called me to discuss what was going on at home because they were falling asleep in class and their grades had dropped. They would be in tears each night trying to finish assignments/homework when they were too tired to think straight. I was suffering from headaches almost continually from the time I started taking them until we stopped and it was dangerous for me to be driving some mornings with my health issues.

We have no option of BYU and no one could actually explain to me any other good reason to actually attend. There were disruptive kids in the class that meant learning was hit and miss anyway and this made it even more unbearable for them. The teacher is a lovely person, but had no flexibility or empathy to parents or students. She has no children and doesn’t work and lives a 5 minute walk from the chapel! We didn’t appreciate her attitude when the homework wasn’t done – even when YW was on the night before and they didn’t get home until 9pm.

Perhaps if it was at a more reasonable time, or we lived closer to the chapel, it may have been different, but we had to leave home by 5:40am each day and it was just too much for everyone.

Seminary was one of the nails in the coffin for us with church. It was a truly horrible experience and we could not find a single positive in it.

[conflicted testimony]

No, we do not pay tithing.

When we were full tithe payers we had nothing left for giving to what we considered worthwhile charities. I think now on the years we did pay, and how much that was and wonder how many disadvantaged children could have been supported with that rather than building more temples.

Like DJ, I have seen many more blessings in our life since not paying tithing – we are out of debt, paid off our house, invested in property (and out retirement – which was looking a bit scary) and can even afford a holiday now and again.

Pre conversion, I visited Rome and Vatican City. I was horrified to see the beggars in the streets and people starving whilst the Catholic church stood there in all it’s majesty and richness. That’s a bit how I feel now about the Mormon church. I bought into the lie (what I believed when I was paying) that the tithing money was being used for the good of people. Now I find that it is only a very small fraction (not even 10%) that is used for charitable purposes, and a very large proportion is used for admin, maintenance and building of temples and churches.

If I were to ever pay it again I would consider it a fee for access to the temple – as essentially that would be the only reason I would pay it. That isn’t going to happen as my testimony of the temple is that it is NOT true.

[conflicted testimony]

I felt I had no choice but to accept my last calling. I felt pressured into doing it with all the usual things eg it is an opportunity to learn and grow, blah blah blah.

They said they had prayed about it and were inspired to call me and knew I was a perfect fit for the role.

At the interview, when they told husband and I, we laughed out loud, we thought they were joking. I was given the role of RS chorister.

I hate music. I hate noise, I run around the house turning noise off. I physically get a headache from it. I can’t sing a note (proven – I have tried and the teacher gave up). I can’t read music, I can’t recognise notes or beats. I don’t know any hymns.

This calling was obviously NOT inspired, it was a calling given to keep us coming each week.

I took it on as I felt I was unable to refuse. I was given lessons by the RS president in conducting, I did on-line courses, I listened constantly to the hymns on cd and bore the headaches that went with that. I would stay awake until all hours for nights on end, trying to learn the selected hymns and how to conduct them. I would be in tears at 3am on Sunday morning because I just could not get it.

Then the RS session came around. I would be in tears again, but still got up there to do it. I had well meaning sisters offering to train me, telling me I am getting better – they just made it worse as it was obvious that the hours of practice I had put in just didn’t make a difference, otherwise they wouldn’t be saying those things.

I felt humiliated every Sunday and did not want to go. I would feel physically ill.

So much for inspired callings and agency. That experience blew another part of my testimony out the window.

[conflicted testimony]

I agree that the younger generation just don’t care that much. Though I am from Australia and the Mormon population is pretty small.

My teens have all said they are not interested in getting one, perhaps that is from church teachings, but I think it is the needle issue as well They have friends that have been discussing what they will get when they are old enough to be able to get one (16 with parental consent, 18 without). They don’t judge them either way other than to mention the pain aspect.

They also know that I have cosmetic tattooing done on my face(long story), and they showed no concern or interest either way. I was a very active member when I had it done and have no regrets at all. I did mention to the kids a few times how painful it was getting done and for days afterwards ….

If that member wanted it removed for his own reasons, fine, but I don’t think there should be pressure to have them removed from the church. It is expensive and painful and the results are not necessarily perfect anyway – so there will always be the reminder there.

[conflicted testimony]

There is a series of articles in the ensign from that time period covering a few of the different beliefs. I found a lot of the articles from back then really informative, or a launching point for further investigation (eg the Palestinian conflict).

I must get back to them …. I gave up when the Gospel library kept on being upgraded and everytime I did that, it deleted all my bookmarks. Very frustrating!

[conflicted testimony]

No idea on the official church position on this, but as far as I a concerned, I consider this still in the marital bedroom (even if you are in separate rooms/countries/time zones) and totally off limits to anyone else sticking their nose in.

[conflicted testimony]

SamBee wrote:

Steer clear of ward talent shows though… they’re awful.

We have a number of trained singers in our ward + a lot of Polynesians who do cultural dances + a family into some medieval type music on traditional instruments. Add to that the youth who do hip hop and rap and it is surprisingly good!

Our last talent night had 2 sisters do a duet of one of the Wicked songs and it was as good as the professional cast. They even had the proper costumes.

It is worth sitting through the kids singing Twinkle Twinkle to hear the good talent.

I prefer a format like a talent night as I can enjoy the show, the food and a very small amount of chit chat. A whole evening of socialising kills me.

I didn’t go to this years Trunk or Treat, but from the photos, and past experience, it is a great afternoon. We have a carnival theme rather than Halloween, so everyone can dress up, just not as scary characters.

It is interesting that I enjoy the ward social events (even though an introvert), yet the kids hate them. They don’t feel like they fit in as there are a few very large, strong families and the kids from those families tend to hang out, leaving my guys (and others from what I heard from one mum) out of the loop.

[conflicted testimony]

This is a really hard question to answer.

I think I am intelligent (IQ), I rated well on the tests. I was very successful in my career in computing and had the Emotional Quotient (EQ) as well to be a good manager. I can usually read people and situations well and mostly know how to act/react. I am good at problem solving. If I don’t know something, I can usually learn it, even if it is somewhat painful to do so.

However, I see an intellectual as one who likes to discuss and explore topics in conversation with other intellectuals. That is not me. On this forum (and others) there are conversations where I step out as I just don’t understand them and, more importantly, don’t want to spend the time understanding them. I am not one for creating new theories eg I excelled in maths, but only after the formula/method was given to me, I could not get there myself. I do not enjoy debate, especially where there are a lot of grey areas or if I don’t have a solid opinion based on my own research.

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