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Thanks all for your comments. I have much to ponder…

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Ask God anything … ANYTHING … and not simply or merely that which Church programming seeks to limit your curiosity.

:thumbup:

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Wow! Thanks for the thought-provoking post! I feel like I am exactly where you were during your faith crisis/mid-life crisis. Your post has given me pause to think over my anger and burnout issues….

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Just read through your “Two Lines of Communication” lesson summary. Wow! Very good–I didn’t even think of Saul, of Tarsus until you mentioned it.

Loved your last line…

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I told them that such a balance (general outlines and personal adaptation) is what I read in Elder Oaks’ talk – honoring and valuing each, but crafting a personal combination that is our own.

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Thanks for your thoughts and stories-they really helped. It also helps to just have some quiet time at home and really ponder where I’m at, right now, with my faith crisis. I really like the idea

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God takes a longer view of your life and your character. And at times, blesses you in spite of inactivity etcetera.

. This definitely helps me to put my feelings into a better perspective.

Thanks again :thumbup:

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Tithing is between you and the Lord, as has been stated by the First Presidency. IMO, the bad option is to ask the bishop for permission to start afresh. The church is not responsible for your relationship to God… you are.

Great point! I completely agree. A few years ago we fell behind in tithing. We skipped about 5 months and then started back up again. We didn’t mention our lapse in payment to anyone in the church until tithing settlement where we just said we were partial payers–that’s it. We didn’t go into explanations or anything, just stated the facts. The next month we had our TR interviews and again stated we had been partial payers–the Bishop just asked us if we had noticed any difference in the months we paid and the months we didn’t (the difference we noticed was really more of an organizational issue and that we were more conscientious of our finances when we did pay–not 100% sure if that’s cause of the tithing or just our general financial situation). Anyway, the Bishop just said that he believed that anytime you get behind in tithing, it’s like other weaknesses in our lives, you just start fresh the next day. He didn’t believe in having people make up the “back tithes” that it’s okay to just start fresh and he also quoted the First Presidency in saying that tithing was between us and the Lord. We were able to keep our TR. Not sure if our experience helps, but thought I’d share it.

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Well said hawkgrrrl…thanks for the advice!

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In the bishop’s office I could never be co-equal. If he wanted to he could make life difficult for me. Disagreements about how to move forward could be seen as lack of loyalty.

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However, I don’t want them to be told that they are “unworthy” for doing X, Y, Z.

Exactly, exactly, exactly! You all are so much better at putting into words what I’m struggling with

To answer some earlier questions, the “injured” parties have basically moved on–my extended family member still talks about the incident with bitterness but he also has decided not to waste his time dwelling on it (the situation happened two years ago although I just found out about it). He is still very active in the church.

My own child has moved on as well but he wants nothing to do with the church–he had some very bad experiences with church leaders–every time we stepped in and supported him but that didn’t change their “decisions”–thus the parental bitterness of my post. My son isn’t really bitter or resentful, he just tends to laugh at the situation and say things like, “they don’t own me” and “It’s really between me and Lord and I’m at peace with that”. I think I am just now dealing with my feelings of everything and have, because of my son, set boundaries. I wish I had set better boundaries for him though and maybe things would be different now.

I think I am also struggling with the repentance process–I just really don’t agree that the Bishop needs to know everything.

opentofreedom–the story about your neighbors–I can very much relate. I would have acted and thought the same way as you, until I went through the last few years with my son and have started my “faith crisis”. It does bug me that we need to advocate for our children in this church–I mean, what does that say about our church and the local leaders??!!! Bottom line–I just want my children to know that they are loved, here on earth and in Heaven, NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO, even if they never tell the Bishop. I also don’t want them carrying a big chain of guilt around because they feel like they will never be “worthy enough”. I want them to fully accept and appreciate the Atonement–not feel that to truly accept Christ’s sacrifice for us, we have to be publicly humiliated, discussed in meetings, and embarrassed. Am I way off base in my thinking? I get pretty emotional about all of this so my logical part tends to disappear…

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opentofreedom wrote:

How would you handle it if it were not in a church setting? For instance if it was with a teacher at school how would it be different?

That’s a good point. I often feel like being called into the Bishop’s office is a lot like being called into the Principal’s office

I guess I feel that if an injustice was done with my child, or relative, at school I would feel more than comfortable going in and talking about the situation with the teacher/admin, etc. I don’t feel that way when it’s a church situation–especially if the person my child, or relative, has “sinned” yet I feel that the consequences are unjust and don’t “fit the crime” so to speak. I guess I just feel like that is not supporting the leaders of the church and makes me seem like I am questioning their authority.

Having said that, I have told my children that I don’t believe that it’s necessary to confess everything to the Bishop–no matter what he asks you–that being honest with your parents and the Lord are the most important. I have left the rest up to them and have also told them they don’t HAVE to meet with the Bishop every 6 months and they can walk out if they start to feel uncomfortable. (My children are all teens or young adults)

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

I look at it as just a typical ignorant reaction by self-righteous members that think they are right to judge each other and if you let them get to you it will be a never-ending source of aggravation.

I hear what you are saying–I guess I’m just struggling with when and how to pick my battles. I get like a mama bear when people play “guilt games” with those around me. I’ve carried too much guilt my whole life for never feeling like I was good enough and constantly feeling torn between trying my best each day and the whole “repentance” process–which, I must confess, has never made me feel better once I’ve gone through it–except when it’s just between me and the Lord and anyone else involved (if needed). I’ve never felt better after talking to a Bishop.

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When I read your first post under this topic, I couldn’t help but chuckle and say out loud, “Yes! I’m so there with everything you are saying!” It has really helped me to read the replies and hear about how you have been able, over the past week or so, to work through some of the anger and feelings. I agree with all that has been posted and have to keep reminding myself not to do something, “just to get even or prove that I can”. Thanks for posting all your thoughts, they seem to echo mine, and thanks to everyone for the replies–I just can show enough gratitude for how much this site is helping me to process!

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I’m new here, but I agree that it’s a good idea to just be yourself without pre-labeling. I think less is more and that it’s good to just take it day-by-day in a new situation. This is a great place to come and vent, get advice, and feel safe in a non-judgemental area.

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I agree with SilentDawning. It’s so taboo to really express our feelings and doubts. I know that if I quit attending church, wild horses couldn’t drag the thoughts/reasons out. I might explain, partially and carefully, if the HT was a longtime friend, but just a regular, assigned HT–no way.

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Thanks opentofreedom! Loved the humor in your post and I can SO relate! “Focus family”, hahahaha… (been there)

I will keep your list of “loves” in the back of my mind as I continue working through the historical “bombshell”! Best wishes and prayers to you as you go along your journey as well. So glad we have this site to be able to encourage each other :thumbup:

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Hello! I am new here but have found such comfort from this discussion board and I hope that you will as well. I don’t have any great advice to offer you but I too, have had first-hand dealings with church leaders that are just mean and/or deceitful actions. Two thoughts have helped me sometimes: 1. I can’t control their actions, only my reaction. 2. Karma–what goes around comes around (okay, so this thought isn’t very charitable, but when I’m really angry it helps).

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Reading through posts, I have been so comforted! Many of your thoughts really hit home and I wanted to quote some of them in case they can help others–THANKS for taking the time to reply:

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“Guilt” is a word that means someone has done something that is judged to be wrong within a system – that, in legal terms, is a “crime”.

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I have found that as I adjust my thinking regarding the church that I now think more in terms of my relationship to God, my family, my fellow man than I do to the church. I still value the church as a whole and see a lot of good, but it is not the end all as it once was. I still want to be part of the LDS experience and my life will always be connected to the church, but in the end it is Christ that will save us and not the church. I now realize that they are not the same but still connected.

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There is WAY too much conflicting opinion in our history from top leaders for anyone, and I mean anyone, to accept and follow it all. It. Can’t. Be. Done – so each member internalizes what resonates with her, accepts but ignores what doesn’t cause any particular emotional reaction and rejects (consciously or unconsciously – or through lack of exposure) anything that just doesn’t register or make sense.

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“in the thick of thin things,” like Neal A. Maxwell said.

So, I spent Saturday away from the computer and just enjoyed my family. Today, I went to church with your advice and experiences “running through my head”. Funny thing, today’s SM topic: Word of Wisdom! Haha! Of course! Instead of mentally berating myself with guilt, I really thought about what you all have said and I was able to actually enjoy the talk (shockingly enough), partly because I’m anxiously working on letting go of my inadequacies & guilt and partly because the speaker focused more on the “yes” part of the WofW and less on the “no” part. It helped me to realize that there is a large portion that I AM doing, so that was a success. Focus on positives, not negatives.

Thanks again for your supportive words and for providing this non-judgemental space! I will continue to take things one day at time…

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Thank you all for your welcome thoughts and wishes! I’m so so grateful that I found this site!

As I’ve mentioned before, I’ve been struggling with the demands of church membership for awhile now, I believe that’s why I’ve turned away from the WofW. So, I’ve literally spent the last day and almost all of last night reading all the posts here and, honestly, I didn’t understand anything in the History and Doctrine sections until I watched John P. Dehlin, “Why People Leave the LDS Church”, the newest version. Okay, so I have never in my life heard of any of those historical inconsistencies! Nothing–not one word about any of it–have I been hiding under a rock my entire life?!?!??

I guess I have always just had faith that it was true. Always. Even lately, my struggles have been more with “what’s wrong with me” that it’s “so hard to live all the teachings” and just general feelings of inadequacy. I’m feeling a bit shell-shocked. Speechless. This is going to seem really strange, but now, the idea of the cafeteria approach is so logical–I am feeling relieved that I feel NO GUILT for saying and truly believing that now.

I have NO desire to even look at any anti-mormon site because I’m afraid that will add fuel to the fire right now. That is not what I want. I’m so grateful for safe places like this site where I can learn more and be heard and share with others who understand without feeling like I’m betraying my entire identity, history, and faith.

I think right now, I’m just going to take some time to process everything. I honestly feel a bit sick to my stomach actually…

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