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I have so much respect for Josh and Lolly and their story is absolutely heartbreaking to me. Not because they are getting divorced, because I do think that will bring both of them more happiness and authenticity… but it is heartbreaking that they were ever in this situation. I think they both made some very valid points and offer a unique perspective that I hope leaders in the church will read their story and start a new dialogue within the church. Josh gave up romance and true love for 15 years, because he felt that was the right thing to do for God and for his commitment to our church. Not only did it not work, but he has had countless thoughts of suicide. He claims in his post that living that unauthentically is literally KILLING members of the LGBTQ community, and it is so true… something has to change!
I don’t know what the answer is, but saying that it’s okay to be gay but you just can’t act on those feelings isn’t it… It is a core part of who they are and by denying it, they are denying themselves. Josh mentioned that viewing yourself, or part of yourself as “broken” is a very harmful thing. So how can the church not see how harmful the current dialogue is?
I am just at a loss and quite frankly almost ready to throw in the towel.
I just read this article that the SL Tribune posted about the old leadership and millennials. As a millennial myself, I think a younger prophet and calling younger apostles could do wonders… http://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2018/01/07/mormon-churchs-gay-policy-shows-the-next-prophets-challenge-may-be-retaining-millennials-who-view-politics-and-issues-differently-than-older-members/comments/#disqus_thread ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2018/01/07/mormon-churchs-gay-policy-shows-the-next-prophets-challenge-may-be-retaining-millennials-who-view-politics-and-issues-differently-than-older-members/comments/#disqus_thread It’s funny that he mentions when you have questions/doubts turn to the scriptures or words approved by the church on LDS.org… Too bad the essays the church published is where I learned about problems in church history and that really shook my foundation… That talk just had me all :sick: Why??? Just why??? Elder Oak’s talk has me FUMING. We know where the church stands in regards to SSM. Can we just drop it?!?! It is HURTFUL. Orson wrote:
– The church is more of a tool or a process than a destination or trophy. Daniel could have misunderstood his purpose in waxing Mr Miyagi’s cars or sanding his deck, we may initially misunderstand the full purpose of our church membership.
I seriously love this, thanks Orson. I am trying to rebuild my framework right now (after it all came tumbling down) and I think viewing the church as a process and a tool is really going to help my perspective.
Before my faith crisis, I definitely viewed the Church and Joseph Smith as perfect. That’s how everything was presented to me and what I built my faith and testimony on. I wish we could have more “real” conversations in the church and share analogies like you just shared. The church is simply a tool to help us in our progression towards God.
Something that hit me awhile ago was that there is not going to be an “LDS church” in heaven. That may seem obvious to everyone, but it was an “ah ha” moment for me. When I think about it like that, I am more patient and forgiving of the “church” because even if it is as close to the truth as we can get, it’s still not God. I don’t need to devote my life and time to the “church.” I need to devote my time and energy to God and what I believe He would have me do.
I haven’t heard of MOPS, but I’ll have to look into that. It is hard to diversify in Utah, but I do agree that it would be good for me to extend my social circle. I am a very social person, so part of my struggle with being a “weird” Mormon is that I feel like normal Mormons won’t really want to be around me or let their kids play with my kids, etc. Roy wrote:Were you proud of your nickname? like a badge of honor? or was it said somewhat disparagingly?
It was definitely not a badge of honor and it made me embarrassed. I have always been very type-A, perfectionist, all or nothing kind of person. So being a “Molly Mormon” was just how I did Mormonism. I was ALL in. I think that’s why I have such a hard time being in the middle right now.
Roy wrote:November 2015 policy. I believe that this is tied most heavily to legal issues that the church foresaw. Prior to SSM being legal in the US the church could just prohibit non-marital sexual relations. After SSM there became the very real problem of what to do if a gay member follows all church rules and enters SSM. Can they be disciplined? on what grounds? Can they be denied going to BYU? On what grounds? If they are at BYU can they live in married student housing? If they were denied married student housing and filled a lawsuit would they win? (I think they would) Some even felt that the church might some day be forced to perform gay marriage ceremonies. (this seems like big stretch but may have factored into the church’s motivation)
Religious institutions are given legal leeway to discriminate for reasons based on church doctrine. This is how many churches continue to prevent women from being clergy. But the doctrine must be clear – even better with a long historical tradition. I believe that the church acted decisively to label SSM as apostasy in order to forego the types of legal and moral questions that would entangle the church’s dealings with members with this type of marriage. They also had this policy mirror the policy toward children of polygamous married parents (no baptism until 18 and disavowal of parents’ lifestyle). I am less certain for the “why” on this part about the children. One reasonable theory is that it ties this new policy back to another more established church policy and might make it therefore easier to present, explain, and defend the new policy.
In short, this has almost nothing to do with protecting the children of SSM couples.
I have never heard that policy explained this way, and it really helps me wrap my head around it a bit better. Not that I am okay with it, but I can understand more where the church is coming from on a legal standpoint to protect their religious rights. That makes more sense than the “protecting the children” argument.
Heber13 wrote:
God allowed Joseph to try to figure things out…and sometimes he got things wrong. God’s plan is not about avoiding mistakes, but dealing with them.That helps me reconcile Joseph Smith. He was a prophet dealing with mistakes and imperfection. God allows that. And that helps me figure out my life and meaning.
I love this so much Heber. I’m so glad I posted this topic, because I was having a ROUGH time and didn’t really know who to talk to about the way I was feeling. I can’t talk to my family, because they are either non-members or very orthodox. Both sides of that spectrum have plenty to say about Joseph Smith…. but I always appreciate hearing the honest, reflective, thoughtful responses of people here.
This is what I needed to hear.
I completely agree that it is a test of love. My orthodox sister almost didn’t come to my other sister’s wedding, because my sister happens to be a lesbian. I finally told my orthodox sister this… “maybe the church is putting an emphasis on homosexuality and God really doesn’t care. Maybe all God cares about is that our sister is a good person (because she truly is one of the best people I know).”
My whole family was shocked and SO happy when my orthodox sister came to the wedding. It was simply a test of LOVE for her. Does she love her sister? Yes. Then go to the wedding!
Do we love our fellow men? Yes. Then be KIND. Be Loving. It’s definitely a test of LOVE.
Thank you so much for your insight Mom3 and for that link, Ray! I actually don’t have a current temple recommend, but the tithing thing really shouldn’t be a problem right now since I am a SAHM and don’t have an “income.” But, the whole story behind my experience with tithing is kind of long and I don’t want to hijack this thread. Maybe I’ll finally do my intro post, since I’ve been posting on and off here since around 2014. 🙂 My “cafeteria Mormonism” is definitely tied to the things I have lost a testimony of or that I’m struggling to regain a testimony of… One of those things being how literal “prophecy” is from our modern prophets. I believe that God speaks through them, but I do not believe that everything they speak is from God. -I don’t think Heavenly Father needs me to wear garments. They are soooooo uncomfortable and ugly. I really just can’t wear them.
-I don’t think 10% tithing is necessary. I do think donating our time and our money is very important, I just don’t have a testimony in the hard rule of 10% to the church.
-I don’t think 3 hours of church is necessary. Really, that’s crazy. We just attend sacrament meeting.
-I think it’s fine to spend money on a Sunday. Sunday is a family day for me, so if we want to go out to dinner as a family, we do it.
-I completely disagree with the church’s stance on LGBTs.
-I’m not sure how I feel about Joseph Smith
When I look at my list, it really doesn’t seem like that big of a deal… but it is a HUGE deal because 3 of those things disqualify me for a temple recommend.
Thanks for the insight, Bear! Quote:I go to church (it’s my tribe and all that) but I am a non literal believer of that makes sense.
I’m trying to figure out if there’s a place for someone like me within the church. If I decide that Joseph Smith was a prophet in the way that Roy so beautifully described,
Quote:I see them as something akin to artists. They paint, craft, and mold out of belief and meaning rather than canvass, wood, or clay. Their body of work contributes and adds to the beauty and wonder of the human experience.
then, I think I have to reel back on my commitment/involvement in the church. Maybe that will be my answer.
I wish the church would make you feel a little more safe to be less-active. It’s such a negative word and there’s such a huge culture of “all or nothing” within the church. You can’t be a “fence sitter.” Or there’s always talk of separating the wheat from the tares (my own mom used that analogy on me…
🙄 )Thank you everyone for all of the thoughtful and warm responses! Every single response gave me something to think about, and I’m planning on going back and reading everything in more detail and taking notes. I loved these thoughts:
-We can look at JS through 2 extremities. A few years ago, I had the viewpoint that is very common in the church where he is on a pedestal and then there’s obviously those people that view him as a complete fraud. I think I need to strip down my old views, without falling to the other extremity and just view him as he was. A man who made mistakes, but who God used to restore our church. I think I can do that. The foundation of my faith is definitely on Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, so I need to focus on that and not worry so much about JS.
-Joseph Smith didn’t create the view I had of his first vision. The church later emphasized the D&C account, not him. That isn’t his fault, so I shouldn’t “blame” him. I still feel deceived that I didn’t realize how different the first account is compared to the one I’ve always been taught, but that’s obviously a problem I have with the church and their deceitfulness. I also liked how someone said they like to look at the similarities between the accounts and focus on that. I like that perspective.
-Masonry: I think where I’m at with this is that everything he took from the Mason’s rituals isn’t necessary to our salvation or even necessary for the ordinances/covenants. If I look at it through this view, it doesn’t bother me as much that certain aspects are taken from the Masons. If those aspects aren’t necessary anyway, then who cares where he got that idea from. I can focus on the covenants instead.
It feels so good to communicate with other people like me… I oftentimes feel so alone and like I don’t really belong with the rest of my faithful friends/family members. None of them know the stuff I know, so it is easy for them to be “all in.” I also don’t fit in with people who are no longer members, because they obviously know the stuff I know but they have chosen to leave. I don’t want that.
I currently don’t have a temple recommend (mostly because I’m not willing to pay 10% tithing, especially as I am in the midst of my faith crisis) but I was also worried about how I could answer the TR question about Joseph Smith. I feel much better about that aspect of the interview now.
You’re all the best. Thank you, thank you!
