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I came on here tonight to see what you guys were saying about this. I am literally sick to my stomach. I’ve been able to come to terms with a lot of things I disagree with, but this… this isn’t okay. I don’t understand. Is this for real?????? Growing up in the “bubble” I was SHOCKED a few days ago to learn that JS had more than one wife. I knew that he taught polygamy, but for some reason I thought Emma was his one and only. I’m sure this comes from my own ignorance and my refusal to touch anything that even resembled “anti-mormon” literature. You are always counseled not to go anywhere near anything that is anti-mormon, which basically means you grow up only learning what the church wants you to know about their history. For obvious reasons they don’t teach about JS and his wives in primary and young women’s, but I still feel like it was a lie of “omission.” I don’t remember any of my teachers saying that JS wasn’t polygamist, but it was assumed he wasn’t. The information about his polygamy may have been there all along, but it was buried. And I was completely in the dark. I had my faith crisis about a year ago, and I would say I’m still very fragile. I’ve definitely come to terms with a lot of my “issues” and learned to separate what I believe to be the “gospel” and what I believe is just “culture” of the church. I’ve learned a lot about agency and my own personal relationship with Heavenly Father. I’ve learned not to care what other people think when my husband and I leave after sacrament each week. I’ve learned to be true to myself. It’s been such an enlightening and amazing experience, and even though sometimes I wish I hadn’t ever had my crisis (because my life within the church was definitely MUCH easier before) I have to remember that all this doubt and confusion has really made me stronger.
A few months ago my friend, who is no longer active, mentioned casually that JS was polygamist and I didn’t believe her. I told her there was NO way. Even though I was in the middle of my crisis and was actively researching things in the church’s past, I just thought that she was wrong. You can imagine my surprise when a few days ago my husband called me and told me about the article on CNN about Joseph Smith’s 40 wives.
Now I’m spiraling again, just when I thought I was comfortable in my shoes and comfortable with “agreeing to disagree” with many of the issues I have with the church. What I can’t seem to wrap my head around is how I’m supposed to trust this church that has continually shown that they aren’t perfect… but then continually asks us to “follow the prophet” because he “won’t lead us astray.” I don’t trust how polygamy “conveniently” came to an end because Utah wanted to become a state. I don’t trust how these essays the church published were basically hidden, but when CNN and other major news outlets got wind of them, the mormon newsroom published an article talking about the essays and how they’ve been there all along. Well yes, they’ve been there, but hardly anyone knew about them. They go on to say that JS having 40 wives is not news to the church members… well it was for my husband and me, and I’m sure we’re not alone in that regard. The timing of the release of the mormon newsroom article just bugs me… I wish SO bad it would’ve been published BEFORE all the media attention.
Anyway, I agree with almost everything that has been said on this forum and appreciate all the discussion. I’m just not sure how to move forward from here. I feel like my balancing act of church vs. gospel could easily tumble out of control as I learn more and more. I can’t keep using the excuse that, “prophets are people and make mistakes too” and “the church isn’t perfect, but the gospel is” because we are supposed to be THE church. The only true church on the earth. The church that believes in revelation and God speaking directly to his prophets. I don’t know how much more I can bear…
Thank you all for your responses. You give me hope and help me to see a new perspective. I am so happy I found this forum and have a safe place to discuss these things. I have a lot to think and pray about, so thank you!! Oh I like the ring idea! I think there’s a lot of different things we could wear something that symbolizes our covenants besides the garment. I have personally decided that I don’t wear my garments for things like working out or if I’m going to spending all day outside in mid-summer. Also, I think it’s fun to walk around the house in something cuter than garments and maybe actually sleep in something different. It definitely helps a lot with confidence and feeling attractive for me as a wife. Am I going to tell my bishop this? No way. It’s definitely between YOU and the Lord. You decide what works for you and then you can answer the TR interview question confidently.
Thank you so much for that link DarkJedi and for that quote Forgotten_Charity! I love hearing things like this, Quote:“In other words, the way you define your income, and consequently your tithing, is a matter between you and the Lord.”
A lot of members (including myself!) view commandments as black and white. I’m learning that there’s plenty of gray area and that we can counsel with the Lord and decide what is best for us and what we feel right doing. I don’t think most people navigate like this in the church, but I do have a very strong testimony of personal revelation and I know that our agency is one of our greatest gifts from our Heavenly Father. I just need to learn to trust myself and not be so hard on myself. I’ve always heard the phrase we can’t pick and choose what commandments…So I guess that’s why I have the views of tithing that I do.
DarkJedi wrote:perhaps a little prayer and fasting is in order.
I think you’re right DarkJedi
🙂 Old-Timer wrote:I wish tithing was more personal and individuals could decide and council with the Lord on what is considered a full-tithe for their situation.
actually, that is exactly the church’s official position on tithing. too few members understand that.
So I was telling my husband about this and he said he still wouldn’t feel right in his own conscience answering “yes” in the TR interview unless he was paying 10% because that is what he believes the doctrine of the church teaches. But the church’s official position is that we can decide and council with the Lord and pay what we feel is right? Is there some place I can direct my husband to so he can read up on this more? If it’s the official position is it in the handbook somewhere? Thanks in advance!!!
I would be SO happy if these changes really happen. About half of my brothers and sisters were at my sealing while the other half waited outside. I didn’t really think much of it at the time, but looking back on it now I feel horrible. I had one sister fly over 4 hours to come to my wedding, just to sit outside. Ugh 😥 My parents were married in another country and the country didn’t recognize temple sealings as a lawful wedding. So they had to be married civilly and then sealed in the temple later. They didn’t have to wait a year, because it wasn’t that they chose a civil wedding OVER a temple wedding–that’s just how it had to be done to be considered legal.
So my question is, why does the church have rules like waiting a year to get sealed in the temple (if you marry civilly first) if it doesn’t apply everywhere?
I definitely understand the principal of putting the temple and sealing ordinance as the priority and focus of your marriage and wedding day, but I don’t think having a civil wedding has to take away from that. Most people want to have a civil marriage because they want their family to be there, which seems like a righteous desire to me. Family is central to the gospel, and I think alienating family members on wedding days is just sad. It breaks my heart.
I have a friend who converted a few years before getting married. Her parents and extended family are not interested in the church at all. She is the only daughter and is very close to her dad. When I heard she was getting sealed in the temple, my heart broke for her whole family but especially for her dad. When she came out of the temple, she went right for her dad and gave him a huge hug while they both sobbed. I just think Heavenly Father, who is our loving father, would understand why my friend wanted her own dad to be at her wedding and would’ve understood if she chose to be married civilly.
I hear a lot of people say, “well what if the couple who chose to be married civilly DIES before the year is up and now they aren’t sealed?!” but isn’t that the whole reason we serve in the temple? Of course someone would do their work and they would have the opportunity to be sealed. That’s just a silly argument IMO
🙂 On Own Now wrote:Also, welcome to the site. I hope you find this to be a productive venture. Best wishes in your efforts to get your tithing situation resolved with you, your husband and your Bishop.
Thank you so much!! It’s definitely a process but I’m hoping to figure it all out soon
🙂 Thanks so much for the thread links DarkJedi! I have spent hours reading through posts on here (since I’m very new) and I searched for more information on tithing and never stumbled upon those specifically. There’s a lot of info to read on here, so thank you! 🙂 Nibbler, if the question is in regards to polygamy then I guess I can answer that question without hesitation. But I wasn’t sure that supporting the legalization of gay marriage meant not being able to answer that question “appropriately.” I overthink pretty much everything, so I felt like I needed to tell my bishop that info and now I wish I wouldn’t have. I go into way more depth and ask questions during the interview, when I really just need to answer yes or no and keep it simple.
I wish tithing was more personal and individuals could decide and council with the Lord on what is considered a full-tithe for their situation. We are all so different and come from such different circumstances. And then there’s the questions regarding net vs. gross and all that.
So can you answer the question with a confident “yes” if you feel you are paying a full-tithe based on what you feel is right? I have always been a perfectionist and I’ve always had to follow commandments to the “letter of the law.” So in my opinion (which is currently evolving) you either pay 10% or you don’t get to answer “yes.” My husband and others I know are great examples of following commandments according to the “spirit of the law” and I’m trying to be more in touch with how I
feelabout things and not just how I’ve been told my whole life. I’m totally paranoid right now too, even though I’m sure it is completely irrational. My bishop made eye contact with me a few times in sacrament yesterday and I felt my heart start to pound and my face begin to flush. He knows my opinion on a few issues and I currently do not hold a temple recommend, but now I wish he didn’t know so much about how I feel. I wish I could trust people around me, but I’m learning after reading through these threads that you have to be verycareful who you talk to about doubts/concerns/questions/etc. I know I haven’t done anything to warrant a “disciplinary council” but I totally feel paranoid and understand where you’re coming from mom3! P.S. Thanks for the laugh, that story was awesome 🙂 On Own Now wrote:Now, between you and your husband, I believe that compromise is a good thing. People do it all the time. If it is 10% or nothing, there is zero chance I would even have the conversation with my wife, but we compromise and pay some. If your husband is adamant that you don’t pay $1, then you probably have some unrelated marriage issues you should work through. Money is the most dangerous love-killing topic in marriages. It’s good to get it solved. I can tell you from the standpoint of someone who doesn’t want to pay it and whose wife does, it’s a sticky topic, but it helps tremendously that both my wife and I are giving up something for the other person and neither one of us is getting ‘our way’.
To clarify, my husband would be okay with me paying tithing on my own income, but I guess I don’t feel right doing that. I don’t look at it as “my” income or “his” income, it is “our” income. But you bring up a good point…even if I don’t pay 10% on “my” income, we could figure out some kind of compromise that works for both of us. I just wasn’t expecting the response I got from my bishop because there’s no such thing as “my income.”
ConfusedMolly wrote:
Quick comment on this. I am with you 100% on gay marriage and I hope our Church will eventually change is stance. However, it’s not fair to say that the Church is forcing its beliefs on others. The Church and its people have every bit as much right as anyone else to have an opinion and express it in a democracy. FYI, the black community in California voted for Prop 8 in higher percentages than the religious right. Do you feel that the black community is trying to force its beliefs on others? There are plenty of things that the Church does that are wrong in this arena, but I do believe that it is trying. For my part, I find that it is much better to recognize that there is a culture that drives this and that I can have influence on the culture, rather than to lay anti-gay sentiments that have existed since the dawn of time at the feet of the Church. I guess what I’m really getting at is that is is healthier to view this issue as one that we can work to solve IN the Church, rather than yelling at the Church that it is in the wrong. The most powerful statement that has been made on this topic is when Steve Young began working for Gay Rights. He didn’t have to throw the Church under the bus to do it, but by stepping forward, he’s made a lot… a lot… of people stop and think that it’s OK to disagree with the Church, and that it can be done civilly. The Church is changing. I feel a part of it.This is such a heated topic, and I really wasn’t trying to attack the church, so I’m sorry if it came across that way
I was SO happy to see the church create the mormon and gay website, that was a HUGE step in the right direction. Also, there have been some great conference talks about love, acceptance, and tolerance lately that I have loved. I need to learn to distinguish between “The Church” and its doctrine and the “culture” of the church. It’s not right to make generalizations or blame “The Church” when a lot of the problems are within the culture of the church and the
individuals. And I definitely don’t think the Church is in the wrong–they SHOULD stand up for their beliefs. I fully expect them to. However, I do not want to be told that I, as an individual, cannot support gay marriage (even if I believe in the Family Proclamation). As an individual, I do not expect other people to believe and follow my own personal standards. I hope I’m making sense–I’m trying my best to tread lightly on this very sensitive subject.
Thanks so much for your reply Ray! I think the reason I felt the need to discuss it is because of my guilty conscience. I have never had questions/problems like this, so it is all new to me. My husband has felt distanced from the church for a few years now, so he’s a lot more confident in his beliefs and where he stands. Meanwhile, I’m just starting out in my journey so it’s hard for me to come to terms with feelings of doubt and confusion. I feel guilty, but because of this forum I’m learning that it’s OKAY to have questions/disagreements/doubts 🙂 Also, I want to say that I love my bishop and have not taken offense from our meeting, however, I do not plan on discussing things like this with him in the future. Thankfully I’ve found a safe place to have discussions because I’m the type of person that needs to talk about things!
