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DevilsAdvocate wrote:

Some have suggested that the Angel Moroni was really a demon in disguise but personally I think the Angel Gabriel that visited Muhammad is a more likely candidate for this explanation. Look at the results; I have a hard time believing that Sharia law and some of the intolerance towards “infidels” to the point of physical violence really comes from God.

Alas my friend, you cannot believe in the validity of nearly any religious text if you are taking this view. There are some pretty horrific acts of vengence and war in the Old Testament. One example is Numbers 31, of which I have posted the “highlights”:

Numbers 31 wrote:

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.”

3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD’s vengeance on them. … 7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. … 13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them … 15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

YIKES! Kill all the boys (even the little ones?? 😥 ) and keep all the virgins for yourselves…

Also, in Nephi 4, Nephi is commanded by the Spirit to smite Laban for the betterment of the rest of the world.

I do not, however, believe the Koran is inspired text. Just thought I’d raise some Cain, and perhaps play “devil’s advocate”.

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Sailor,

I realize that my ideas do not line up with everyone’s on this post – but for you, I will put my neck out there.

I think no man has the right to judge who is worthy, and who is not, of eternity. Essentially, by excommunicating you, they are taking away your right to eternity. (Yes, you can “earn” your right back, but that’s a different post…)

The idea that you need to confess your sins to any man is so Catholic I can’t get over it. When you are repenting, God (and whoever you hurt) are the only person(s) I believe you need to ask forgiveness from. The church is just an istitution of imperfect men.

P.S. We are a confused hogpog of members, non-members, and goodness knows what. You are most welcome, and should consider all your thoughts, doubts, worries and hopes most safe and at home here.

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So, my turtle’s left and right hemispheres aside…

Hawkgrrrl wrote:

I prefer to understand God as an exalted man, not as an exalted man. I like the idea that he was human and become divine more than the idea that he IS divine; his humanity seems more relevant to me personally.

The problem I see with this outlook is that when we start looking at God as we like, we start humanising Him, rather than exalting Him. The Greeks had a terrible case of this. Their gods were all drinkers, womanizers and frankly – kind of whiney. These gods embody human imperfections, making them very easy to relate to, but is that really the kind of god we want to have? (Obviously I know you’re not saying God is an imperfect human up in the clouds somewhere, but this is the extreme)

I would argue that an omnipotent, always-God kind of God is even more relatable than an exalted man. The latter can relate in the same way that a friend “relates” to a problem that you’re going through – like when a close relative dies and someone tells you “I know how you feel – I also once had a close relative who died.” But with an omnipotent God (no longer progressing in knowledge, but 100% all-knowing) It’s not “Ya, I had an experience similar to that so I kind of know what you’re going through” – it’s, I know what you’re thinking, what you’re feeling. Not because “I’ve been there” but because I created you, and know you intimately as your Omni-present/potent Creator.

More than just someone who has gone through something similar once upon a time, He in His omnipotence knows you and everything you ever go through. What’s more relatable than someone who can actually feel what you’re feeling?

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From a Girl’s Perspective…

DO NOT start this topic when she brings up temple marriage! If she’s anything like me (which she may not be, but for argument’s sake…) she is trying to fish out your romantic side. Haha. I used to bring up marriage and all those gooey, girly things with my now husband, because I wanted to see if he’d get all doughy eyed when we talked about our future and stuff. I wanted to see the love he had for me, and the dreams he had for us.

I would go with the sit down approach, or maybe when you’re having a serious discussion about doctrine and church activities. I would also kind of lead with questions, one so you aren’t just announcing your opinion randomly, and two so that you can flesh out just how delicately you’re going to need to phrase your opinion when she asks you for yours. I also suggest starting out with more basic doctrinal concerns before you start delving into hot spots like Joseph Smith’s past. There’s a phrase in the church that goes “milk before meat” (which I hate, but that’s another post), and in this situation I think it’s the wisest option.

She may be a TBM, but if she loves you as much as you love her, she’s going to do her darndest to work through this tough time with you. You don’t want to be with her for life, never mind eternity, if the temple wedding is more important than the marriage.

Good luck, hun! Love is a battlefield

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bridget_night wrote:

…I felt like we as members were getting more and more reigned in and muzzled as to what we should think or say in our callings.

I had a conversation with my mother-in-law about this very topic not too long ago. She has been “called” to lead Primary, but regularly gets “helpful tips” from the leadership in her branch. In theory, God has inspired church leaders to call individuals to their posts, correct? Now, unless they think God has made a mistake, you should be allowed to teach by the Spirit’s leading. A God that created this wonderful universe we live in is not a God-in-a-box. I believe He can use the lowest of people (and even things like songs, literature, and then why not objects…) to lead and inspire His people.

Anybody can read from the assigned texts and tell the learners to “turn to page 220 in your manual”, but there’s a reason why people are called. Personal relating and revelations has been replaced by four walls and a cookie cutter.

I think if we allow for greater flexibility and diversity in our teaching styles and content, we can tap into a greater spectrum of the unique gifts and experiences God gives each of us.

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Wowza! So many responses! Thanks for your thoughts everyone. I’ve been reading them over for the past few days, and I noticed a thought that I’d like to touch on.

Orson wrote:

… Everything except the complete, exact and minute details of the future that is (or it would seem to nullify agency).

jbelli21 wrote:

… taking this view point provides me a whole lot more comfort and makes me feel in a lot more control of my life

Does the idea of God being omniscient eliminate free will? I would say no.

Show of hands, how many of us have done something dishonest in our life times? (You. In the red. Don’t lie, put up your hand! )

I, for example, used to sneak cookies (go figure… ) and then blame it on my siblings. Others do things like cheat on spelling tests… or kill 6 million Jews. It’s not like God has a pair of rosy sunglasses on and only sees the good stuff. He sees pain and suffering, and God knows it’s going to happen, but He doesn’t stop it, that’s what makes it free will. YOU chose to make mistakes, but you wouldn’t have the opportunity to if there was no free will.

Just because God knew what you were going to do, doesn’t mean you didn’t choose to do it. Omniscience doesn’t equal no agency.

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