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JS and OC both believed that the Book of Mormon story took place, in at least its final denouement, in and around the Hill Commurah in upstate New York. This is clear from the “history” of the church published in several installments in the church’s own publication Times and Seasons between 1834-1835. If JS was a prophet of God, charged with the mission that LDS ascribe to him, how is it possible he got it wrong? It makes no sense. And if it asks us who have come after to make up incredible stories about how maybe the landing of Nephi’s family took place in Asia, then it would appear to be an attempt to pull a rabbit out of a hat. How can anyone except JS as a modern prophet and believe he was so naive about the very thing he was called to do? You’re all grasping at straws, if you believe such nonsense. It is a lot easier to leave the church than to renounce one’s citizenship and leave the country. Most countries require non-citizens to be employed and have a green card. So on that score the analogy really doesn’t work. As a scholar of US foreign policy sometimes I want to, though. The country truly has a dark side.
asha wrote:(This could give some of you some insight into the baggage I carry that makes me really fear bringing up kids outside the church).
Well, there is no guarantee raising kids in the church will keep them from the stuff. I was born and raised in the church and did all of those things. We used to ditch seminary to get high.
Rod, You say you had this experience but, far as I can tell, you never really described it. Please do so.
Curt
happymom wrote:I’ve had someone accuse me several times of belonging to a cult. I was wondering what everyones thoughts were on this subject. I know there are times when it can seem cult like but I have to really laugh when I hear this accusation. My dh had me read an article several times about how the LDS church is a cult. I laughed out loud at the part where it said that girls camp was part of the cult like behavior. Maybe my experience was different from others because I loved girls camp. My leaders were awesome and would go swimming in the lake with us at 3 a.m. They never pressured us to act like the well-behaved house wives or anything.
I think it is the WofW and the temple secrecy that leads to the conclusion that the LDS church is a cult. Here my focus is the WofW. Cults do things like control the behavior of their members. I have Catholic priest friend whom I’ve had many discussions with about our two religions and the world in general. I never really understood why people saw the church as a cult until discussing the issue with him. It wasn’t the subject of our conversation but at one point he asked or made a comment about how he just didn’t understand what, say, alcohol consumption had to do with spirituality or the teachings of Jesus. And, while I can’t articulate the insight I got from that comment, it just suddenly became very clear to me why people outside the church would look upon that as cult-like behavior. To be sure, plenty of Protestant denominations prohibit or preach against the evils of alcohol but it is rarely as circumscribed as it is in Mormonism. I don’t think the LDS church is a cult but I think that this also might be a case of the myopia many Mormons live in, where they can’t see themselves as other do, and therefore don’t understand why others characterize them as they do.
Quote:“Please don’t beat yourself up too much about this. I don’t know what your particular issues are with the WofW. I really wish that people in our Church didn’t make as big a deal about this as they do. It clearly wasn’t that way for most of the history of our Church. It is a nice ideal. People should follow it according to their faith. I believe there is a lot of truth to be discovered in the WofW, but it should never bring someone to the point of wanting to quit being a part of the community. This is just my personal experience with it right now, and I have followed the WofW to different degrees over my life, but I really don’t think God cares that much about it. I don’t think it is a extreme as a lot of Church members make it out to be — like a single sip of tea might taint your soul for all eternity. I wish it wasn’t such a strong cultural identity. But that is just me right now.
For what it’s worth, I do not follow an orthodox practice of the WofW either right now. I was pretty bad as a teenager, being depressed and self destructive. I followed normal standards when I went on a mission, and for the next 20 years after that. I am back to a much more liberal and broad view of it. If you are having trouble with something and it is harming you, that is a priority to work on. Don’t let slips in orthodox WofW practice take you out of the game. Do you know what I mean? If there is a devil called Satan, and he really does try to trick us, then that has to be his favorite tactic — stop playing the game because you made a mistake. You aren’t good enough to be with the “good” people. You aren’t welcome. That is big load of BS! Whatever it is, don’t let it take you out of the game.”
Man, do I wish this site had been around years ago. I left the church over WofW issues. When I was a young teen and was into drugs I actually had the bishopric tell me if I didn’t stop I would be excommunicated. I didn’t even possess the M priesthood, so doubt that was even a possibility. But boy did it jade me. I understand the point of the WofW but I too wish it wasn’t such a big deal in the church. I might still be an active member if it wasn’t. As it happened I have been a lifelong abuser of alcohol. That isn’t the church’s fault but I can’t help but wonder if that had not been such a hang-up if I would have stuck around and maybe, eventually, found a way out. I’ve heard this is an issue for the church worldwide, where, esp alcohol, is such a part of some cultures that the thought of giving it up just seems absurd. I heard a story one time about missionaries in an east European country trying to tell a new member that he couldn’t drink anymore and he said, I don’t. They had to point out to him that he drinks beer. He said that’s not drinking. Agreed!
Bouvet — Just to set the record straight, I wasn’t saying you thought the FV was a fairy tale. That is my position. I wish I could agree with Bouvet. But I cannot. JS claimed incredible things. He developed a wholly new theology. A decidedly unorthodox theology. God and Jesus are separate beings. It is either true or it is not. The church stands on this principle. The first vision is its proof claim, and its only one. If you believe in Mormonism you MUST believe in the FV. But it is sadly a fairy tale of the highest order likely created to justify JS’s prophethood. The evidence says as much. Old-Timer wrote:Oh, and I just re-read my comment after reading yours. I meant to type “opponent of polygamy”, but typed “opponent of the Church”, instead. That is a serious typo. I am going back and changing the original comment to reflect that mistake.
Ray,
I hate to nit-pick but Clayton had 10 wives and married the last one in 1870 nine years before he died. He was never an opponent of polygamy. Probably he was one of its biggest supporters.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:A footnote suggests this may refer to Emma having had several adulterous affairs as a reaction to JS’s polygamy.
curt, that is pure speculation and I have not seen any proof in any of my research over the years.
I agree. And I said as much. I have just never heard this claim before and wanted to know what others had heard about it.
Quote:Frankly, this is one of the reasons I have a problem with Clayton’s records. There are a number of things in them that simply don’t mesh with multiple sources I have read, and not all of those sources were sympathetic to Joseph or the Church. He became a very bitter opponent of the Church, and was at odds with Joseph often even during his membership.
I can’t agree here. Everything I have read says he remained loyal to the church throughout his life and bore his testimony to the end. But I realize I have turned this into a debate and that is not for this site. Sorry about that.
Sally, I think you’re on to something here. Whichever church brings you closer to Christ stick with it. I think this was the message of Grant Palmer’s book
An Insiders View. But why Christ? Why not God? And so, why Christianity? Why not Judaism? or Islam? or Buddhism, etc?I am aware of the issues surrounding use of historical sources. Lots of factors come into play in determining the veracity of a given source. In the case of William Clayton there is very little reason to doubt his account. Clearly, he did not make it up, so that’s out. Did he misunderstand JS? Always a possibility but highly unlikely. One of the things that is so amazing about the journals is that they record at one and the same time JS’s polygamy even as they record his public pronouncements denouncing it and claiming he had no part in it. This displays a brute honesty in the journals. No attempt to hide anything. It’s mind boggling really, how WC could be so complacent about the deception. Of course, he was a true believer and knew that polygamy could well destroy the church, and yet believed also it was of God and had to be practiced, so one can make some sense there but this gives a level of veracity to his journals as well. I really think we can pretty much take WC at his word. When JS counseled him not to take a third sister from the same family and then asked if he could have her instead I think we can believe him. This does not change some of the other observations discussed in this thread about how to make sense of polygamy but I think we can at least dispel, in this case, with the idea that the source itself is flawed. WC brings up another issue that I had never encountered before. Very intriguing entry. It is not long after JS was killed and he is having a conversation with Emma. She is unhappy with WC and they got into a verbal spat.
“. . . I then went to see Emma. I found her alone and began to talk to her and tell her what I thought Wood’s intended [sic] to do. She grew warm and said that all the business of the Trustee must be presented. We had no secrets that we must keep back from the public for she was determined to have everything settled now. I replied to her that there were many things which I was unwilling the world should know anything about and should not lend my hand to ruin the church. She then grew angry and said I had neglected her and the business, and there was nothing that had President Smith’s name to that should not be investigated. She said she had no secrets nor anything she was unwilling the whole world should know. I told her that there was some things which would be unwilling the public should know. She denied it. I said I knew things that she did not want the world to know. She said if I harbor’d any idea that she had ever done wrong it was false. I answered “what I have seen with my eyes and heard with my ears I could believe.” She said, if I said she had ever committed a crime I was a liar and I knew it. I replied Sister Emma I know I don’t lie and you know better what I know I know and although I never have told it to any soul on earth nor never intend to yet still it is the truth and I shall not deny it. She then several times called me a liar. . . .”
A footnote suggests this may refer to Emma having had several adulterous affairs as a reaction to JS’s polygamy. While this cannot be proven from this entry has anyone ever heard of this before?
Well, you’re all a lot more tolerant/understanding than I am. The passage I quoted from WC’s journal seems to remove all of the so-called spiritual aspects of polygamy which might make it somewhat acceptable for those of us who have found it disturbing, esp that JS was himself a polygamist. It would appear there was lust involved after all. It also, I think, removes any doubt that JS consummated his polygamous marriages. That had, for me, remained a possibility. I think it was about sex and power, now, another nail in the coffin. mr_musicman wrote:My take:
Joseph was a good man and had a good soul. He wanted to do God’s work. However, he had the impossible task of setting up God’s church on the earth without ever having been a member of it before. Sometimes he didn’t have the appropriate frame of reference so he just did his best. I also agree with Ray, we do hold our leaders to impossibly high standards and forget that in the end they are still just men.
Hey, I figured it out (the quote thing). Here too I have a major problem. I don’t believe any longer that JS “had the impossible task of setting up God’s church on earth.” I thought that, for the most part, at this site we were beyond that. If you still believe that Mr. Musicman what is troubling you that would draw you to this site? Just curious.
“Look, the dude came down from a mountain with carved stone tablets. He talked to a burning bush, and claimed the finger of God etched them. Is that any more wierd than a peep-stone in a hat?” Sorry I am unfamiliar with how to do the quote thing. I know this doesn’t address all of your thoughtful comments about my post but I want address the quote above first, because for me it strikes at the heart of the dilemma. There is no historical evidence for Moses’s existence. I no more believe that Moses came down a mountain with carved stone tablets than I believe (any longer) that JS actually possessed the Gold Plates except as some prop to fool people. This is part of the unraveling of my faith that occurred as I encountered the problems with Mormonism. So the analogy does me no good.
