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Old-Timer wrote:

In that light, let’s all be very careful in this thread not to turn it into a place to dump on Pres. Kimball in any way – or even just a dumping ground on the book itself. If we are going to tackle this book head-on (which I have no problem with us doing), let’s keep it focused on two things, please:

1) any messages from it that really do apply to all of us – like the ultimate conclusion that practically all really are covered by the grace of God in the end;

2) ways to set aside the harsher parts and reconstruct a different paradigm that makes more sense and applies more to us as “average sinners”.

Pretty tough order for me, as I have nothing positive i can say about the book. I’ll just excuse myself from this thread with this quote from my bishop in 1985, “Read the book ONCE, and then never read it again. EVER!.” Pretty good advice, and I’ve followed it. The book is not on my shelf for my kids to read nor will it ever be, instead, I have put The Continuous Atonement by Brad Wilcox. Great book, but that is a topic for another day.

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Old-Timer wrote:

…Finally, I just don’t think there is ANY redeeming value in objective or gratuitous porn

Yeah – if there is, I have certainly yet to hear about it. Redeeming value being the key here. Porn certainly has value – but, like you said, I don’t see it having “redeeming value” either.

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DevilsAdvocate wrote:

…As a consequence I can buy R-rated movies in the bargain bin at Wal-Mart and my wife won’t think much about it but if I came home with “Girls Gone Wild” all hell would break lose…

Funny.

Old-Timer wrote:

…For quite a few people, there really is a physiological reaction that is hard to avoid and control – just like alcohol with an alcoholic.

Yes. Here is Porn chemistry 101 as I understand it, FWIW: Pornography causes the release of the endorphin, dopamine. Porn triggers dopamine (the “craving neurochemical”) to stimulate the pleasure/reward circuitry in the brain. High levels of dopamine lead to erratic behavior and compulsions that are not conducive to survival. Sexual intercourse increases the dopamine levels rapidly, and then completely shut off after (hope I can say this on this site) orgasm, and is replaced by high levels of prolactin, which causes individuals to want “isolation” rather than companionship. (this is why men don’t have the “snuggle” desire after sex. ) Without this natural, protective shutdown, you would pursue sex to the exclusion of all other activities, including eating and sleeping. This is the same chemical reaction that happens when one uses cocaine. It is very addictive. It can be compared to basking indefinitely in sexual bliss as long as the stimulus is procured to release the chemical. Very addictive to most people. Cocaine creates a huge pleasure/reward high, followed by an intense emotional withdrawal. And just like alcohol, some are more prone to the dopamine release in the body than others. What happens is the body becomes conditioned to an artificial stimulus to release dopamine in the body and then over-corrects itself by shutting down the natural process of dopamine production, which limits the naturally occurring release of the dopamine – or a natural high. This is also why pornography can be so damaging to relationships. One is basically manipulating their sexual biochemistry and naturally occurring “bonding” chemicals, even to the point where their body will no longer produce the endorphins necessary to stimulate and “enjoy” sexual relations (pleasure/reward) and/or “bonding” with their partner.

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flowerdrops wrote:

.. the First Vision/Godhead, the B.O.M, temples, and living prophets. So… what if I have little to no testimony of the truth of any of these things? I am to the point where I know I can call myself a Christian, but do I even have the right to still consider myself LDS? What exactly does being a Latter-Day Saint mean? I feel like such a phony…

Yep. That’s my story. I feel like a hypocritical phony. Those on this website might be surprised if they knew what callings I currently have in the church – and I’m not ready to talk about that at this time. It is such a challenge for me to attend church – because I can’t just sit in the back and “not say anything.” It’s just one day at time dealing with this “crisis of faith.” I get grouchy on this website, I admit, but I had gotten to the point where I honestly believed I had NO CHOICE but to leave the LDS church. I really didn’t know how I could continue living the “lies” any longer —- until I stumbled onto this website. And I am grateful that I did. It has helped me to put things in perspective. The consequences to myself and family of just packing up and leaving the church would have been tragic. This website has allowed me to stay LDS, not because of how I feel about church culture and what I know of church doctrine and history – but in spite of it.

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Kevin grew up in Weston ID – about 20 miles north of Logan Ut, attended school at Ricks and Utah State. He lived in Nephi UT for 10 years, and now lives in Star Valley WY for the last five years.

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I would be interested in hearing how this plays out during the next few weeks. I hope you will keep us updated.

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Rix wrote:

My only point was that “we” worry so much about what we “should or shouldn’t do,” that we forget to focus on the more important principles of loving each other. I see specific lifestyle commandments (WoW, what is keeping the Sabbath holy, no bunco, etc.) as diversions to improving relations with and giving service to each other.

Yep, I certainly can live with that comment.

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Got it.

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hawkgrrrl wrote:

Quote:

My TBM fam would simple counter that it wasn’t church leaders who made the change – it was god. Then they would quote me, “by my own mouth or the mouth of my servants, it is the same.”

So, who do they think wrote the Bible? God himself, personally? ‘Cuz that kind of colors the reading of that scripture when you think about it.

Actually, yes, I suppose they do believe that, at least the parts that didn’t get changed by the catholics during translation. That’s why they believe it “literally”, you know, Jonah got swallowed by a whale, water turned to blood, no death or birth on earth until after the fall…Now the BofM and the D&C IS THE WORD OF GOD in it’s uncorrupted form and should be accepted, believed and obeyed to the letter. Every word! It comes from straight from God, Joseph only held the pen… Oh brother, and folks wonder why I’m so cynical.

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Rix wrote:

Sheesh! I gotta tell you, this is one of those “petty” things I just have to step back and say “some people need to be told everything to do!”

Can’t we just love our neighbor the best we can? If we’re worrying about if bunco is “okay to do,” how can we put our energy into doing the really important things in life?! Sometimes I think so much attention is given to the leaves, there’s no way to even see the trees…let alone the forest!

(I’m not pointing fingers at anybody here, just the “culture” in general…)

My wife plays bunco and I participate in the office pools – many of them, and I lose a lot of money, and I don’t apologize for it. But I just don’t understand why either of these activities would/should be a church thing. I don’t think it is a sin or bad, but why do it for church? IMO, It would kind of be like having a church night to gather around and watch The Office or House? Nothing wrong with it, but WHY do it for it church? It just seems like one could find a lot more constructive things to do with the little free time that we have. I don’t know, I don’t care much for church socials in general so maybe I see it that way. The fewer church social activities that I “have” to participate in the better. I have a church life and I have a social life — and I try not to mix those worlds too much. I kind of view it like George Constansa (Seinfeld) – If your different worlds collide to often, bad things are going happen.

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Old-Timer wrote:

… AND, most importantly, it was given directly and exclusively to the Young Men. It’s a great case of where something directed solely to one group has been co-opted and applied to all.

Really? I was never told that. I feel like I’ve been lied to, AGAIN!

I think Schindlers List is a good example of nudity that is not pornography. I also watch a lot of Vietnam War coverage, and I see plenty of naked people and “sex” all the time – and I don’t think it’s porn. There nothing erotic about it – it actually makes me sick.

PS – I just have to ask because I don’t know all the lingo, what is a “Troll”?

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DevilsAdvocate wrote:

…It bothers me that Church leaders can just change these things on a whim to match their own opinions and then we are basically stuck with all these dogmatic rules until further notice. This kind of unquestioning obedience and authoritarianism is one reason the Church was able to pass off racial discrimination as an essential doctrine until 1978. In my opinion, the WoW is one of the single most cult-like and unchristian features of the current Church culture…

Wow. Bold statement. One that I certainly agree with, but don’t have the guts to say so myself – maybe not even on this website.

My TBM fam would simple counter that it wasn’t church leaders who made the change – it was god. Then they would quote me, “by my own mouth or the mouth of my servants, it is the same.” —- perhaps we should insert the quote

Quote:

This kind of unquestioning obedience and authoritarianism

here?

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I have no problem with bunco. My wife is in a community bunco group, there are a few other members in the group as well, however, it is NOT a ward activity. It is a social group to meet and interact with other folks from different backgrounds in the community. I guess it doesn’t sit well with me if bunco became a church activity. I don’t think it is “wrong” really ,in the gambling sense, but I don’t think it is “wholesome” either. It just seems like there would be a lot of other things one could plan for a church social night? I think it would fit into the Bingo category. If a person wants to play bingo or bunco, great, have fun, but why does it have to be at church and become an official church activity?

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Yeah, I’m glad you started it—I spent a lot time this Sunday talking to a nonmember about the “spiritual significance” (his words, not mine) of his tattoos. We also have a 30 year old gal that has an eye piercing that looks pretty cool. Not sure the story behind it – yet.

Quote:

For a religion where we have lots of symbolism, are there tattoos that are helpful to someone remembering spiritual things? Even if the symbols are “spiritual”…is putting them on the body just wrong in all accounts?

Obviously for some people, tattoos do serve a spiritual purpose. And I think that Mormons, and Catholics, two religions that base a whole lot of their worship on symbols and symbolism, should be very careful about how we view those folks with tattoos. Especially the newcomers. Now, I’m glad I didn’t have some cool mormon tattoo to remind me of my faith — as my faith has evolved quite drastically over the years. But what about, say a CTR tattoo? Would that be a “sin”? Afterall, it would help remind one of their faith? What about a cross tattoo? Oh yeah, that would be a sin because it’s “the cross.”

Heber13 wrote:

…So here is what President Hinckley said:

Quote:

“Now comes the craze of tattooing one’s body. I cannot understand why any young man—or young woman, for that matter—would wish to undergo the painful process of disfiguring the skin with various multicolored representations of people, animals, and various symbols…

“Likewise the piercing of the body for multiple rings in the ears, in the nose, even in the tongue. Can they possibly think that is beautiful?… The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve have declared that we discourage tattoos and also ‘the piercing of the body for other than medical purposes.’ We do not, however, take any position ‘on the minimal piercing of the ears by women for one pair of earrings’ ” (Ensign, Nov. 2000, 52).

Firstly – “can they possible think it is beautiful?” Ahhh, yeah. I’ve seen hundreds of tattoos on females that I would consider beautiful. Of course, the female is usually quite attractive to begin with, but the tattoo, kind of like makeup – can enhance the beauty – IN MY OPINION (disclaimer). I also admit that for every beautiful tattoo I come across, there is probably a thousand ugly ones.

Also I was not happy that pres. Hinckley would include the sentence about multiple ear rings in this spill. I don’t care for four and five ear rings personally, but I met an attractive gal who had two gold rings in each ear, and it looked awesome, and then I married her. The rings were part of her, and they had NO negative effect on her temporal or spiritual well-being. None what so ever. What was the big deal? After this speech, she took one set out, and I will admit I was NOT thrilled about it. I wish she would put them back in, but I would never ask her to do so. she obviously feels like she needs to follow the letter of the law, and truly wish her the best in that regard.

I think it is just like anything else — if people would/could use moderation and some common sense and some restraint we wouldn’t have to make all these petty commandments and subject ourselves to the codes that the Israelites were FORCED to live with. I think I can safely say, IMO, that when this “revelation” came out it was in response to those who take it to the extreme, and those members in the church who didn’t “abuse” tattoos and piercings got thrown under the bus as the church leadership tries to do what is best for the 95% of the membership.

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Cadence wrote:

As far as the church is concerned I think they think everything is porn. Anything short of women wearing a loose fitting gunny sack is considered porn.

😆 😆 I’ll be sure to let my daughter know. Prom is coming up on Saturday.

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