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Featherina wrote:
I also think that it would be great to forget teaching about church history (“HIS STORY”) – & teach Proverbs, the Beattitudes, & other basic teachings of Jesus Christ.
I like that. I’m going to suggest it at the next meeting. I’m in a small branch, sometimes we break away from the United States Correlation Committee standards. Who knows?
Perhaps it’s just me, but it seems like Proverbs and the Beatitudes are often the lessons that the SS teach skips to make sure we have time to cover the “important stuff” at the end of the manual
Cadence wrote:Quote:I have found that when I rely on a warm feeling or an emotional answer to prayer it proves unreliable. The only way I have ever determined that I have gotten an answere to prayer was when I use the intelligence god gave me and figure it out on my own.
My formula: Intuition + logic + sudden burst of understanding = answer
I do not trust emotion or “burning in the bosom” answer to prayers, as I have felt that many times for some crazy different answers. Just because it “feels right” does not work me. The problem is, I have felt that same “spirit” if you will, and those same “emotions” doing things I knew I shouldn’t be doing and praying about things I knew the answer to already, but wanted to get a different answer, and I did get different answers – if I used emotions to do so. I’m pretty sure the people who followed Jim Jones to their graves had a burning in the bosom, a it “feels right” attitude, and an emotional answer to their prayers right up until the day they killed themselves????
Old-Timer wrote:cwald, if it helps in any way, please read the following posts from my personal blog… Maybe it will help you understand me a little better with regard to the Word of Wisdom and those who leave the Church:”
Quote:My Dream: A Collective Mighty Change of Heart
I would feel like I had died and gone to heaven if every member in my ward and stake openly and sincerely invited everyone they knew to sit with us as we worship in Sacrament Meeting simply because they love them and want to share our worship with them – no other strings attached.I would love to see our chapels packed to overflowing during Sacrament Meeting, even if many of the attendees left the building and didn’t stay for the other two hours – because they weren’t interested in the instruction that occurs in those meetings.
I would love to sit with a gay friend and his partner and their daughter, to smell cigarette smoke residue in the pew behind me, to wave to the girl in the tank top in the back, to see what tattoo or earring the man in front of me had added the previous week, to be surrounded by every shade of skin imaginable, etc – even if I had to wish them a blessed week after Sacrament Meeting ended, and even if I had no realistic hope in them ever being baptized and joining the Church…
Fellowship vs. Membership—How willing are we to accept a habitual drunk as our pew mate? How willing are we to embrace a homosexual couple in our meetings – understanding that they will hear the Law of Chastity preached in our meetings and might never be baptized and join our membership ranks? How willing are we to tolerate the smell of tobacco from the pew in front of us? How willing are we to have a Baptist or a Methodist or a Catholic or a Jew or a Muslim worship at our side if they are open about their unwillingness to be baptized? Yeah, this is certainly something we can build common ground on. This IS my hope for the church. Well said.
Not sure how to answer the question, but I remember THE DAY I found out the JS had more than one wife. Worse for me, was when I found out that many of them were young teenagers. That day was perhaps the start of my crisis of faith. I don’t blame anyone who leaves the church because of the history and doctrine. I understand. I have managed to stay LDS -not because of the history and doctrine – but in in spite of it. cwald wrote:Actually Ray, you sound just like my older “Bishop” brother which is maybe why you annoyed me so much earlier.
😡 I’ll get over thatActually Ray, you’ll get a kick out this. My friend who was disfellowshiped that you commented about, who only wanted the bishopric to stop by and…. Well his bishop IS my old brother.
Okay, I’m back. I had to spend a couple of days drinking heavily so I could calm down. (that is a joke) I do appreciate that there are some on this site that understand what I’m trying to say about this issue. I thought perhaps I had crossed a stayLDS line and wasn’t allowed to speak about it. It is very very frustrating to me, because I think I understand the gospel pretty well, and I just have never been able to figure out how the WofW that I was taughtfits into it. In fact, it doesn’t. In my opinion, it is absolutely BS – at least the way that I was taught the WofW growing up. I apologize for my rant, Ray, I really don’t understand you very well, but I know that you’re doing and saying what you feel is right, and I do appreciate the time you put in to keeping this website up and running. Actually Ray, you sound just like my older “Bishop” brother which is maybe why you annoyed me so much earlier. 😡 I’ll get over thatDevilsAdvocate wrote:I can’t count the number of times I have heard TBMs make judgmental comments about how people who drink or smoke smell bad or are worthless idiots in general because of these habits. Whatever happened to loving your neighbor? More like love your neighbors as long as they think and act almost exactly like you do. To me, this is what the current WoW policies are really all about more than anything else, basically promoting some level of cult-like separation between those on the inside from outsiders. As far as I’m concerned this is the attitude that really needs to go away but it’s hard to convince some active members of this as long as it’s a temple requirement and is still emphasized so much in the culture of the Church.
This is what I’m talking about! YESTERDAY in church, we have 6 non-members/very inactive members who, from what I have deduced, is because of their WofW problems, they just don’t feel comfortable at church. Great! The chapel smells like cigarettes and coffee – as it should, because the people who perhaps need to be there for spiritual guidance, are actually there. Right? “Church is for the sinners”??? The high councilman gets up and gives his spill, and I kid you not, in his talk he uses the words “smoking” and “evil” in the SAME sentence at least three times. He didn’t come right out say that “smoking was evil”, but it was pretty obvious (to me and my wife at least) what his message was. Oh all the good and decent messages one could preach from a mormon podium, he had to go and say THAT? What’s the chance of getting these guys back in church anytime soon? It was unbelievable! Made me sick to my stomach. I made sure I talked to every one of those guys after sacrament meeting. Even spent an extra ten minutes with one guy and let him tell me about all the spiritual meaning of all his tattoos. (That”s another topic for another day.
cwald, fwiw, your friend has some deep-seated issues that he has to come to grips with if he’s hanging onto that complaint.
He has to know that they believe Jesus is the Christ, and he has to have heard it said thousands of times in his life – and he has to know they were sincere when they said it. He’s picked the one thing that he is almost guarnteed not to hear at his doorstep – not because they don’t believe it, but because it’s so obvious they believe it and he knows they believe it that it’s totally unfathomable to them that they need to say it directly to him in lieu of anything else.
Please share that with him at some point IF you feel inspired to do so – but not if you don’t. Some things need to be left to us to come to realize on our own – and this might be one of those things, since he probably will come up with some other unfathomable need if he is forced to let go of this one before he is ready to do so.
RAY – What planet are you from?
Ray, are you kidding me? Perhaps I’m in the wrong forum? Perhaps I’m on the wrong website? In your attempt to lecture me, you completely missed my point. Here is my point…
“The rules we are taught about the WofW from the podium ARE NOT in the revelation – and by making it a TR question – it has become “doctrine”, and we are ‘forced’ to obey it to be fully active mormons”.That was my point! Okay, now, pertaining to the rest of the response. I said , “but it certainly from MY EXPERIENCE it seems like I belong to The Church of Word of Wisdom rather than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.”
Perhaps I am on the wrong website for stating what my experience is – but don’t tell me I’m wrong and don’t know what MY EXPERIENCE is.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:rather than basing an entire religion around it
That hasn’t been done – and you never will find true peace until you realize, acknowlege and embrace the fact that it hasn’t been done.
Quote:from my experience it seems like I belong to The Church of Word of Wisdom rather than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
Really? You think you know my experience? Here is my experience…
My nonmember friends KNOW that mormons don’t drink coffee or alcohol, but they had no idea that I’m a christian until I told them. They didn’t even know I believed in Jesus! yet they know I don’t drink coffee? You want to argue about a culture that has built itself around the WofW. DON’T TELL ME WHAT MY EXPERIENCE IS.
My MORMON friends in HS would not go out and drink as teenagers, and would instead go and watch R-rated movies and “make-out” on the couch – that way they could graduate from seminary. DON’T TELL ME WHAT MY EXPERIENCE IS.
Growing up in the 80’s during the BRM years, and still some today, the WofW is mentioned in the same sentence as chastity. Chasity and WofW were the TWO sins that would “send you to hell.” I heard it EVERT sunday growing up. DON’T TELL ME WHAT MY EXPERIENCE IS.
In my Branch, I hear more about the WofW EVERY Sunday than I hear about Jesus Christ. DON’T TELL ME WHAT MY EXPERIENCE IS.
When I went to the temple-the pinnacle of Mormon worship-one of the three covenants I made, along with tithing and chastity, was keeping the WofW. DON’T TELL ME WHAT MY EXPERIENCE IS. (my wife is reading over my shoulder and said something about the law of consecration…I don’t know, haven’t been for a while, but you get the idea. 30% of the temple covenant is based on the WofW.) DON’T TELL ME WHAT MY EXPERIENCE IS.
Look, I know that the WofW is not the gospel. I said so, “that SLC doesn’t preach this.” This is a cultural issue. This is what is coming from the culture that we MORMONS have created. I envy you who participate in a ward where this is NOT the focus of worship. BUT FROM MY EXPERIENCE IN THE CHURCH, THE WORD OF WISDOM IS ON PAR WITH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST AND LIVING THE LAW OF CHASITY. Please! I’m pretty sure that Im not alone when I say that, yes, our CULTURE has built a religion that SEEMS to be based on the WofW. You ask ANYONE who is NOT LDS and they will tell you so.
If you don’t agree or don’t care for my opinion, fine, I will gracefully bow out and look elsewhere to discuss these issues. BUT DON’T TELL ME WHAT MY EXPERIENCE IS. If I wanted you to do that, I have plenty of church leader and family members who are more than happy to fill that role.
Old-Timer wrote:I personally don’t dwell on the status change. It was a suggestion; now it’s a temple requirement. OK. Got it.
😈 I’m glad there are those who can just say that. It’s just doesn’t work for me. Actually, it chaps my hide. This “status change” which came during prohibition has evolved in “gospel doctrine” over the last 90 years and I believe it has become one of the single biggest stumbling blocks to the church. it certainly is one of mine. I wish President Grant and the current members now would have just listened and followed the suggested wisdom in the WofW, rather than basing an entire religion around it. I have no problem with those who choose to interpret it and add dos and don’t that just aren’t there for their personal worship – but why “force” everyone else to do the same. The rules we are taught about the WofW from the podium ARE NOT in the revelation – and by making it a TR question – it has become “doctrine”, and it does “force” us to follow these rules that are not in there if we want to be fully active members in the church. Perhaps this is not official doctrine coming from SLC — but it certainly from my experience it seems like I belong to The Church of Word of Wisdom rather than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:
I’m not so sure the WoW is really all that clear about alcohol as far as trying to claim that any moderate amount of alcohol is automatically bad. Sure it specifically mentions wine and strong drink but I doubt that very many non-Mormons would interpret beer to be a “strong drink” regardless of whether it contains 3.2-8% alcohol. People think this is what the Word of Wisdom means simply because that’s what they have been told, not because that’s what it actually says. In fact the WoW specifically says “All grain is good … barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks.” If beer is not, in fact, the most common and popular “mild drink” made from barley then I don’t know what is.Yep. That is what keeps me shaking my head every time we cover this topic in SS. PERSONAL INTERPRETATION!
I have a close friend in Utah who got disfellowedshiped from the church a year ago. We discuss spirituality quite often over the phone. He told me the only thing he wants from his Bishopric is for them to stop by his door some day and just tell him that they know Jesus is the Christ. he doesn’t need or want anything else from them. They have not done that. They stop by his door often, to “admonish” him to do this and do that. Perhaps when you visit them, you should let them know how you feel about the savior, and just leave church out of it — after all, you are “representative of the savior” and you just happen to be using the mormon church to distribute the gospel message. Interesting enough – my friend thinks it’s very IRONIC that I’m (the most vocal questioning and skeptical member he’s ever met) is the only mormon who has ever stopped by or called him up, and been able to say simple that Jesus is who he says is. (Of course i have the advantage of knowing what he wants to hear.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:It’d be nice for the church to develop an alternative program for boys who aren’t interested in scouting
It’s called Duty to God – and, overall, it’s supposed to be encouraged over Scouts as a program for all young men.
Really? This is certainly not the case in our branch/stake. Do we belong to the same church?
Many many years ago I did some personal research about dreams. FWIW, most “experts” disagree entirely with each other about the meaning of dreams with one exception; one unifying object that most of these researchers I read about agree on is that dreams about “houses” and about one’s “home structure” are dealing with a persons feeling of emotion security.In dreamology, houses are representative of ones spiritual and emotional state of well being. I know this and remember it because I was having dreams myself about “homes”, physical homes, and I was disturbed by it and looked for help on what might be going on in my sub-conscience mind. I can’t remember the source off hand, but I will find it. I don’t know if I believe it necessarily. I don’t know if anybody can interpret another persons dream (regardless of what the bible says about Joseph in the Egypt prison with the baker and candlestick-maker or whatever) or if I would want someone to try to interpret my dreams. I think dreams are very personal, and can tell a person a tremendous amount about themselves, and about what is going on inside one’s own sub-conscience psyche.
So, I don’t know you, but I think you’re personal interpretation of the house would fit the little I do know about dreamology. Most people that I know would never even think twice about such a thing. I’m glad you didn’t just ignore “the spirit” as it -IMO -is trying to lead you in your spiritual journey.
mormonheretic wrote:And lest you think the Bible is on solid ground archaeologically, I recently did a post on the Exodus. You might enjoy this quote:
Quote:During Passover celebrations in 2001, Rabbi David Wolpe created international headlines in Israel by proclaiming to his Jewish congregation in Los Angeles, “the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way it happened, if it happened at all.”
The Exodus has many similar problems as the Book of Mormon. For example, we don’t even really know where Mount Sinai is, and there are some scholars who believe the Exodus story is a complete myth. Of course, there are others who believe the Exodus story and try to explain it. It’s a really long post, but if you’re interested, go to
http://www.mormonheretic.org/2010/04/11/questions-about-the-exodus/ That was a great read. Fascinating. I’ve read a few of those snippets from those sources before, but I liked how you color coded the different sources together to make it more comprehensive — compare and contrast. Thanks.
Hey, I sent this post to one of my brothers who is NOT StayLDS, but occasional stops by the site and visits with me about it. He is not a TBM, but pretty close. Here is his response — He doesn’t worry about being politically correct and his lack thereof make me laughs. This is not meant to offend Flower – its just a little humor that touched my funnybone this morning. Quote:“Agreed. I would like to see GD/SS moved to 3rd hour, and be purely optional.”
Whoever said that is a moron. Who do you think is going to be called to teach that “optional” class? It’s gonna be me and you and the handful of other “Utah raised Mormons” who were raised to always say yes when asked to do something for the church. Sorta takes the “optional” out of the picture and throws the whole plan out the window.
Anyway, I’m all for simplifying, just not sure where to start. The programs I think need to be cancelled, others will think are vital. For some reason those programs seem to revolve around parents dropping their kids off for somebody else to babysit for an hour or so on a weekday evening.
Anyway…
Kirk
