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I don’t usually like to bump old threads, but I’m going to this time. Based on some of the comments I’ve seen from Orson, I decided to go look up his introduction thread. I think Orson’s worldview is probably the closest I feel I can come to real faith in God. Thanks for being here and sharing your views with us, Orson. By the way, it sounds like you must be a descendent of Joel Hills Johnson. So am I. I have pioneer ancestors way back on both sides.
Just going off comments I’ve read here, you might watch for people who read their own material during the meetings, skip certain meetings, or attend irregularly. I went to the link, and nothing is happening there that I can see. It’s almost 10:30pm Eastern Time and it was supposed to start at 9pm. Either nobody showed up, or it’s somewhere else. EuSouScott wrote:I couldn’t phrase is any better than Boyd J Petersen as he quoted T.S. Eliot “We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.” This is how I feel today and have you all to thank.
Wonderful! That’s a great quote. Thanks for sharing it, and welcome to this community.Your comments have definitely given me a lot of think about. Some of your ideas really spoke to me. Heber13 wrote:like having trust and having love…it is allowing myself to feel the power that comes from things despite having less than full certainty.
Orson wrote:I really like the idea we find in 1 John: “God is Love” This is the main trait and power that I associate with God. All through the scriptures I find more support for the idea that the power of God is the power of Love. Do I have faith in Love? (As one example) Absolutely.
Love is a power that most people, at least in our culture, won’t argue with. Personally, I’ve never been overly sentimental. I have never put a huge amount of stock in the idea of love. When I married my wife, I didn’t feel a hundred percent certain that I was in love. But I knew that I felt comfortable around her, I admired many of her qualities, I respected her, and I trusted her. I felt confident that we could be happy together. I definitely put some faith into the act of marrying her. We’ve made mistakes, but by and large the faith and trust I exercised have paid off. There has absolutely been a certain kind of power in the way we have trusted one another, despite not feeling an absolute certainty about what the future will hold.Old-Timer wrote:What if you never find it?
What if you never stop searching?
What if the map is infinite?
What if that’s the point?
Imagine if.
I also find value in having a search-orientation, in continuing to inquire and look for more even if you’re not sure you will find definite answers. I know that at times my agnosticism has led me into apathy. But by and large I have always felt the urge to keep learning and growing. And I have always felt enough faith in myself to feel confident that I can figure things out, given the right resources. I’m not sure I will ever have the resources to figure out what happens after death, but that doesn’t mean it’s pointless to keep trying to figure it out.Thanks everybody. I definitely welcome any further thoughts you might have.
I might be able to come on for a little while, but not long. I just hope we don’t get a flood of TBMs in here trying to “fix” us all. đŸ˜® LDSThomas wrote:Daeruin — I agree with your thoughts on faith. The “fake it till you make it” approach of many church members (IMO) often prevents us from being real with each other — so I never really feel like I know who is where on their faith journey in the real world. And, consequently, I don’t feel comfortable revealing where I really am either. I don’t ever remember hearing someone say in a testimony meeting “I HOPE the church is true” or “I have FAITH that the church is true.” (I have grown to have a love/hate relationship with the word “true” — but that’s another matter). Consequently, I find it hard to bond/relate with ward members on a personal level. Perhaps if I were more honest with where I am, others would be, too. But I am not really interested in being labeled a “project” by the HPGL or the stake, haha. My bishop is a little bit aware that “life is hard” right now because of some other issues (but I haven’t discussed any “faith crisis” stuff in real detail). He is a great guy but I’m not sure if I would ever discuss this with him.
I know of one person who has stood up in sacrament meeting and said “I hope the church is true.” I wish I had been there. She blogs at agnosticmormonmom.blogspot.com. She has a lot of good stuff on her blog. I definitely recommend it.I totally agree with what everyone here is saying. Calling a cab was definitely a good idea. You can be as careful as possible yourself, but that won’t stop some idiot from driving too fast and ramming into you. And faithful people die in car accidents and random catastrophes all the time (however you want to rationalize that, it does happen). The God I’d like to believe in would expect you to exercise your own best judgment. Having said that, I can understand how he might be upset about your pretty unequivocal statement—that you have no faith that the Lord could get you home safely. Not just that you felt that the Lord would expect you to take care of yourself as best as possible first, but that you literally felt the Lord wouldn’t protect you at all. For a true believer, that’s a pretty harsh statement to hear. I think I can see where he’s coming from, too. One of the things I like about this forum is the many different perspectives people bring to the table. It’s so helpful to see the issues from different angles. I am maybe more lucky than some of you, because my wife knew about some of my problems before we even got married. I had been basically inactive ever since we met, although I still went to church every now and then. We dated for three years before getting married (not in the temple), so we have a pretty solid relationship that’s not dependent on the church. The bad news is that she thought I would eventually “get over” my faith issues. I promised her that I would always go to church with her. But when I still hadn’t “gotten over it” after a few years, she finally went to the temple without me. We have always had pretty good channels of communication. We’ve gone through some pretty rough challenges and always managed to talk them over and respect one another.
The exception would be my faith issues. We seldom talk about that. It’s hard for me to be open when I know that my opinions cause her pain; she ends up crying every time we talk about it, and I hate feeling like I’m disappointing her and ruining her dreams. I hate knowing that no matter how much she loves me, I will still never be everything she wanted unless I can finally take her to the temple. On the other hand, I love the idea of being open with her. I want to be able to tell her how I feel and have that extra level of intimacy. I want her to be able to “get” me and accept me for who I am, including my lack of faith. I doubt that would ever happen, but at the very least I want her to know what I really think and feel.
I don’t know why it feels so weird to me to point her to the Faces East forum. Maybe it’s because she’s been so immovable about what she wants out of me, and sending that to her is kind of implying that she’s not going to get it. And I don’t want to disappoint her any more than necessary.
Thanks for the perspectives, everyone. One of the things I have liked the most about Facebook is that I’m exposed to political ideas that I would never have encountered otherwise. I don’t have a TV and I don’t read the news, so FB is often my only outlet for that. However, I had forgotten that I can’t be anonymous on FB. So maybe that will have to wait until I feel more comfortable that way. Welcome, and thanks for sharing your experiences with us. I like what you say about feeling like you are exercising faith for the first time. I’ve always felt that faith was believing something and taking action despite a lack of evidence, whereas most Mormons seem to take belief and treat it as rock-solid knowledge. I think actual faith is more self aware and takes more commitment. I admit I only spent a few minutes over at NOM and so my impression was based on just a few threads. Maybe I need to give it more time. When you say you informed him and he didn’t respond, how did that go down? Did you send an email or something? If you talked to him in person, what impression did you get? I have never wanted to talk to my bishop about anything, and I’ve gone through several already due to frequent moves. I already know what they are probably going to say, and I don’t feel like being pushed or preached at. And I definitely don’t want to cause a big conflict and maybe get myself kicked out, which could happen if I had a hardline bishop who tried to force me into being totally honest about what I do and don’t believe. I need my space to think and figure things out on my own terms. I just don’t react well to being pushed. If you’re in any kind of similar state of mind, I would recommend not saying anything at all. Be polite, be vague, but be firm about what you do and don’t want right now.
Maybe none of that applies to you, but it’s the best I’ve got.
