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I think the person speaking on the podcast was putting forth their own opinion on how things should be. The online world is more diverse than that. I’m with ya’ll. We have had the missionaries over for dinner a few times as well since we moved into this new ward. I work from home, so that makes it easier to schedule a time when both me and my wife can be here, meaning we get asked a lot. It works pretty much as DarkJedi described. It’s never been a problem or anything. I enjoy helping them out, especially knowing how nice it was to get dinners when I was out. My only concern this time is to be prepared to answer whatever questions they may pose since they’ll be here specifically to teach the first discussion. Like I mentioned before, I don’t think well on my feet.
I go back and forth sometimes. As a kid and young adult I was really happy in the church, and a big part of me wants them to have the exact same upbringing. As an adult, I would like my kids to come to the same conclusions that I have, so I can talk to them about it. But then I realize I’m basically wishing for my kids to be clones of me, and that’s not the point. I hope I can achieve what Ray talks about, where I can feel good supporting my kids no matter what they decide later in life. SilentDawning wrote:Today I am thankful. I am thankful that my whole household is sick. We have a strong reason to stay at home. Viruses are good antidotes for church anxiety.
I’m in almost the same boat this week! Wife and baby are sick, which is enough to keep us all home to “keep from spreading germs.”I’m still curious to see if anyone has an answer to the OP’s question about meditation. Doesn’t anybody around here meditate? I don’t but I often feel like I should and figured some of you probably would. It seems like a great supplement to one’s spirituality.
Thanks for the advice, O.O.N. Does anyone know if the missionary discussions can be found online? I’d love to have a chance to read through it. I know they’ve changed since I was out in the field.
Quote:We’ll try again when he’s a little older.
Old-Timer wrote:My advice:
Don’t try. Just let it happen naturally, when he has questions and when there are things said at church with which you don’t agree. (not big picture things, initially, but more detail / specific statement things – things that are age appropriate)
If you try to force things on people who simply see things differently than you do, it can get messy quickly (as all of us can attest when others try to do that to us) – and that might include your kids as they get older.
Thanks for that advice, it’s probably more realistic anyway. Unless I start participating in certain things again, questions are bound to come up without me forcing things.cwald wrote:So I was just brutally honest with them. They were very scared, at first…some tears even. Their fear and sadness quickly turned into anger at my family, and the church institution. The anger has now turned into empathy for religious members who participate for family reasons and who need and want religion in their lives…, and into cynicism and skepticism about religion and organizational hierarchy…which is a healthy and wise way to look at the world, IMO. (PS – our household is big fans of Skeptiod and Skeptically Speaking. )
I only quoted a small part of your post because it was kind of long. I admit I was wondering what you were doing on this site, and when you mentioned that maybe you weren’t the best person to be giving me advice I started to agree. But I’m glad you stuck around and shared your story with me. It’s helpful to see and hear different approaches. I’m a skeptic myself, so I’m glad you mentioned Skeptoid and Skeptically Speaking. I’ll put them on the long list of podcasts I want to listen to when I have time. I also like your diverse approach to spirituality.Ann wrote:Hi, Daeruin – I think this issue is the hardest one for people here. Many/most manage to find an equilibrium with a spouse, but kids are a different story. Fortunately, there isn’t anyone you love more in this world than your child, so it is easy to get the first principle first: do no harm. And that will be different for each kid. I assume your children are young-ish? At least you don’t have the baggage of having taught them for years things you don’t believe now. Good luck.
Yes, my kids are young-ish. The oldest just turned 8 and will be baptized soon. I have four more kids aged 6, 5, 2, and 9 months. We have told the oldest about my different beliefs, in a general sort of way, but I don’t think it really sunk in. He spent a few days trying to convince me. He’d say things like “Look dad, it even says in the Book of Mormon that Jesus is real. NOW do you believe???” After a week or so I think he kind of forgot about it.
I didn’t see this before, either. It really hit home to me, because I can remember a time when I was acting the part of the judgmental relatives. I hope to never make that mistake again. Thanks for posting it. Believe me, I have nothing but sympathy for these kids. I served a mission in a tough area and I know what they’re going through. I also think that a lot of missionaries are out there because of social pressure that they convince themselves is actually the spirit pushing them (that might say more about me than about reality 
I just want to be prepared, because I don’t think well on my feet and I don’t want this to make my situation any worse. Like ihhi, I just don’t want to go down the road of attempting to resolve concerns, and I don’t want to become a project. I also don’t want to end up saying anything that will hurt my chances of being able to baptize my son. This should be about him, not me.
cwald wrote:How about the teachings for starters… that without the church you…You lose the spirit, float aimlessly through the world as an immoral, heathen drunkard on drugs and will be miserable for this life and the next.
There is only one way to be happy in the LDS culture…it’s a one size fits all approach.
I get what you’re saying, but I think maybe you’re misunderstanding my concern. I don’t worry at all about how miserable the church thinks I might be. My original worry was that my kids would feel betrayed or deceived when they find out their dad is a nonbeliever, or nontraditional believer. I lean towards being totally honest with them for that reason. It’s why I don’t take the sacrament, don’t pay tithing, and was not planning to perform my son’s baptism (I may change my mind on that).cwald wrote:PS…as far your comments to the Spock, as a guy who got married, while my dad sat out side of the temple…I can tell you that the LDS institution often/and wants to/ have more influence over your kids than you, especially if you are a heretic or NOM.
That is a fact one can observe everyday at the LDS temples.
I agree that the church wants to have more influence over kids who have heretic parents. I also understand your point of view. I sat outside the temple while my little sister got married and while my wife received her endowments. It didn’t bother me. It made me happy that they were doing something that made them happy. There’s a chance I would feel differently about it if it were my own children. But I don’t believe that just because the church WANTS to have more influence over my kids than me, that it will necessarily succeed.Being married to a traditional, faithful member of the church complicates my decisions. She’s not going to budge (much), and I love her and don’t want to tear her down or stomp on her hopes and dreams (any more than necessary to keep my personal integrity—I am always honest with her). So my desire to keep a happy marriage means I’m stuck navigating the middle path whether I want to or not. Honestly, if it were up to me alone, I probably wouldn’t even be part of the church right now—but not through bitterness or a conviction that the church is awful. My experience with the church hasn’t been negative, except in a few minor ways. The fact that I think most church members are good, mostly good, or at least trying to be good, makes it easier for me to support my wife. My question is how far to go towards teaching my kids traditional faith while staying true to myself and nurturing a good relationship with them.
Cwald, it sounds like you’ve managed to raise some good, solid kids. How did you do it? How long were you an unbeliever before your kids found out, and how did you handle that (before and after)?
Cadence wrote:I can say with experience it does not get easier. If your children are still young best to get it sorted out now. If you wait they will grow up in the church and more than likely the church will have more sway over them than you. They will want to go to the temple. They will have children and want to bless them. You will eventually be excluded from those things unless you can fake it. All the while you are trying to keep their respect while maintaining your integrity. It just gets more difficult with time. Worst of all you will have grand children and will have to play the part with them so their parents will let you spend time with them.
Like I said fix the problem now it only gets worse.
I’m not sure it’s likely that the church will have more sway over my kids than me. I’m a firm believer that kids are shaped primarily by what happens in the home—and if I neglect to interact and talk to them about their life experiences, then my apathy is responsible for how much they take from the outside world, whether that’s church, school, whatever. You say that your comments come from experience. Can you explain how you handled this with your own kids? Did you use any of the approaches mentioned by the other commenters?cwald wrote:I think much of the fear NOMish parents have in regards to their kids is unfounded…and based on fear instilled by the organization itself to ensure loyalty from the adults.
I’m not sure I follow. What fear do you think the LDS church is instilling in adults to ensure their loyalty?SilentDawning wrote:I suppose they believe I am orthodox in many ways, when really, I simply focus on what I have in common with the church. When talking to the kids I also give advice after settling into their young, perspective, and often, my advice is the church line if it’s not harmful or something I don’t feel strongly opposed to. When they are young you don’t have to go that deep. They may not even notice you never do certain things like go to the temple.
…
Anyway, you get the idea. A few strategies are:
1. Do not be proactive in sharing your unorthodox beliefs.
2. Provide moral reasons for the unorthodox beliefs you must share.
3. Deflect questions that you don’t have a suitable answer to, come here, post your problem, get perspectives, and then return with a well-thought out answer that preserves your objectives.
4. Rely on your unique circumstances as reasons for customizing your belief system.
5. Focus on what you have in common with the church.
Hope that helps.
That does help. So far my kids haven’t noticed my unorthodoxy much, probably because they are so young. As they get older I won’t be able to hide as much. I have some pretty big and obvious things to deal with, and I have no idea how I’m going to do it. I’ll definitely take your advice about posting here when things come up. I’ve already gotten tons of help from everyone here.journeygirl wrote:But what I already do, is I try to get them thinking about things rather than just accepting what they are told. You don’t always have to share your opinion on religious topics. You can encourage the discussion to be a thoughtful one to show them that these are issues that people have debated and wondered about from the beginning of humanity.
I do this as well. It’s one thing that comes naturally to me—trying to see things from different angles, thinking things through, not passing hasty judgment, and so forth.journeygirl wrote:One thing I really like about LDS theology is the huge importance placed on free agency. I would uphold this principle in my family.
I definitely agree with that. I think that many LDS people only pay lip service to the idea of agency. You tend to get the idea that agency is only good if it’s used to make choices that everyone else in the church agrees with. As if making mistakes or “bad” choices wastes your agency somehow or somehow makes you unworthy of having agency.Old-Timer wrote:I don’t have time to respond fully right now, but there are a few threads in our archives that deal directly with this issue. When I can, I will try to find one or two and provide links to them.
Ray, anything you can turn up would be appreciated. I’ve done a few searches, but there are several hundred threads here and my searches always turn up a lot of results (like 300+ pages). I haven’t been able to find anything particularly relevant in the time I’ve had. I get the impression that most people tend to post new threads even when there might be an existing one that covers the topic. Everyone’s situation is a little different, and half the reason to be here is for the moral support of knowing that people are listening to you and exchanging common experiences. If it was purely for informational purposes, I’m guessing there would be a lot fewer posts.Thanks for all the replies!
I presume that the bishop does in fact need to approve of the person performing the baptism? How do they handle it when the person performing the baptism is from another ward? If I ask my wife’s dad to do the baptism, for example—does the bishop need to talk to him first to make sure he qualifies to perform the ceremony? My TBM wife actually questioned whether I should even try talking to the bishop and suggested that we just put my name on the form they’re having us fill out. Then, if he wants to talk to me, he’ll have to initiate that.
I can really identify with what some of you are going through—attending to support immediate family, but not getting anything out of it for one’s self. Nibbler’s comment stuck out to me:
nibbler wrote:I will say that I’ve felt liberated by letting go of the few doubts that I’ve been able to let go of; again that doesn’t mean I now believe what I doubted, rather I’m experimenting with making what I do believe be the governing force in my life – doubts have been in the drivers seat for far too long.
I hope I can start to feel that way too. My skepticism felt good for a long time. But I think it also held back a lot of growth. I’m hoping to get more hope back in my life. Haha. Right now I don’t have much hope, but I hope for more. Maybe later I can hope for faith.
I read Rough Stone Rolling after my loss of faith. I thought maybe if I learned more about Joseph Smith, it would help. It did nothing for me. But it was definitely an eye opening read.
