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Old-Timer wrote:
Hang in there.
You love your spouse, and, in the end, that is what matters most.
This. This, I think, is what allowed my wife to pull back from the fear and pain she was feeling. Like Nibbler, my relationship with my wife only got better once things were out in the open and we were able to talk and be vulnerable for each other. Each time we opened up and were met with trust and love, it only got better. What worries me is that your husband seems, based on your limited comments so far, to want to get you to think the same as he does. That’s OK to an extent, but you both have to allow the other to have different opinions and to respect them. That’s part of what love is about.About baptism, tithing, etc. That’s one reason I think your husband could benefit from being here. When I found this forum, I was convinced I would not baptize my son. But the ideas and support I found here allowed me to start thinking differently and eventually baptize him. I’ve even started considering paying tithing again. There are lots of ways to look at things beyond the traditional, orthodox way. If your husband has time to read and research church history or theology enough to be having a crisis of faith, maybe he can sacrifice some of that study time to come here and get some alternative viewpoints. It couldn’t hurt and may help—a lot. It did in my case. He doesn’t have to read stuff he’s not interested in. I often skip threads about subjects that aren’t bothering me now, because I don’t want to complicate those issues for myself on purpose. I have enough to deal with in other areas, and my time is very limited. I’m lucky if I can make a couple of comments a week. But I keep trying, because this is one of the few places I can really be myself and deal with my faith issues in a safe, considerate, and positive way.
StoneGypsy wrote:Thank you both for the welcome and the wisdom. So glad to find this site and learn that there are more people facing similar issues. Since we’re not telling any friends or family yet, we’ve both felt pretty alone. Especially appreciate that I’m welcome here as a believer. Doesn’t seem as common from what I’ve read on the forum for someone like me to join in, but everyone seems caring and nonjudgmental.
It isn’t very common for people who describes themselves as a believers to join this particular forum, but we absolutely welcome believers who treat us with the same care and nonjudgmentalism that we try to treat each other with. The problem is that many believers have a REALLY hard time with being accepting and nonjudgmental for those of us with unorthodox belief or complete lack of belief. From the tone of your comments so far, it seems that you don’t have that problem. I look forward to your continued participation on this site.Back to your original post. It’s definitely tough. I feel for you. Our circumstances are similar yet different. My wife and I got married outside the temple, so she knew that I had some problems with the church but married me anyway. Still, we didn’t talk about specifics for YEARS. We were married for nearly 10 years before things finally started to heat up in that department. She was so patient with me. We have rarely (maybe never) had serious disagreements about anything and have always felt like we have good communication, except on this one issue. I held out for so long because I felt confused and alone and it was so sensitive to me—I was really scared of being rejected. I guess I had my head in the sand, in a way, feeling like if I could just avoid talking about it to her, then we could just continue coasting along as we had without any other problems. Whereas if I came out and told her I no longer believe in God, knowing that she probably still has her heart set on an eventual temple marriage—well, that felt like a huge deal, a potential atom bomb waiting to explode. And it was really tough for a few months. Really tough. She even had thoughts of divorce—something that was literally unthinkable to me, and I had thought it would be unthinkable to her, as well. That really hurt me, as my revelation hurt her. It’s not that our marriage exploded. We still loved each other and got along fine. But for a while there was a lot of raw emotion and uncertainty.
Normally, it would be your husband here on the forums asking us for advice on how to stay LDS or remain in positive contact with the church for the sake of his wife… and we would tell him to take it slow, don’t dump all his beliefs at once, recognize that he’s the one who has changed and so most of the burden is on him to accommodate you and maintain a positive relationship, try to recognize that your beliefs and feelings are just as valid as his, and try to attain a measure of peace with uncertainty or with changed beliefs so that he doesn’t feel a need to “correct” or proselytize his new views on his family or other church members. That tends to make things better for the one going through the faith crisis. I’m honestly not sure what advice to give in the opposite situation. Is there any chance he might want to join the board himself?
Thanks again for all the additional suggestions! It was a lot harder for me to pick a song than I thought it would be. If I had a stronger belief in Christ than I do, it would be much easier. I ended up looking through every page of the hymn book. If I had time, I would make a list of all my favorites and talk about them. But, to make matters short, I chose Brightly Beams Our Father’s Mercy. It falls in line with many of my hopes and beliefs. The God I want to believe in is more merciful than I grew up thinking. But int he end, I think it’s really up to those of us manning the “lower lights” to exercise our selflessness and reach out to those in need. Brightly Beams has always, always been one of my favorites, and I was annoyed at myself for not remembering it sooner. And I was surprised and very happy to find that the lyrics hold up under my changed beliefs. I just hope it will work out in sacrament meeting since it’s a men’s hymn. I’ve always been frustrated by that. I’d like to be able to sing this hymn more often.
Thanks for all the suggestions! I have always loved singing and sang in the ward choir for a long time after my faith crisis. There are so many beautiful hymns. I would have a hard time choosing based on aesthetics alone. But since my faith transition a lot of hymns that previously spoke to me now break my heart instead. It will be hard for me to pick one I enjoy singing and carries a message that’s meaningful to me. I definitely intend to choose one that’s meaningful to me (as much a possible), but I was hoping you guys would remind me if one I like that is doubter friendly. I love the message of Oh Say What Is Truth, heber13! Alas, I don’t like the tune at all. I feel like a heretic saying this, but I have never liked I Stand All Amazed.
I will let you know what I pick. I am open to more suggestions.
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I also liked this quote: Quote:People do what they do and believe what they believe not because there is incontrovertible, scientific evidence, but because association with a particular identity helps us understand who we are in the world.
That is so great. I wonder if you would want to share the finished talk with us. Only if you want to. Thanks for posting this, mom3. It brought back memories of singing Handel’s Messiah when I was in high school choir and later when driving around with one of my mission companions around Christmas. I love that music with all my heart. Heber13 wrote:It brings me peace to believe I’m not so alone in my suffering, and to reflect on that part of v4: “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows”.
For some reason, the way you phrased this touched me this evening. I’m slowly beginning to thaw towards the idea that holding positive beliefs can be beneficial, regardless of things like evidence, knowledge, or even direct experience.SilentDawning wrote:Daeruin wrote:I found it to be very close to my experience. The “unfreezing” stage seems to be the equivalent of the actual crisis of faith, the thing that breaks your shelf. For me, the initial crisis stage lasted several months, and trickled on for a couple of years after that as I slowly disengaged. Because of family ties and my own slowness to make decisions, it took me probably 4 years before I basically gave up and completely reached the disengaged stage. Right now I’m very actively in the reconstruction phase, taking slow baby steps towards reengagement.
I would suggest modifying stages 4 and 5. I think the modification portion of your stage 5 overlaps too much with the reconstruction aspect of stage 4. I think it would be clearer if stage 5 were the end result of reconstruction—either exodus or re-engagement. But I also wonder if stage 4 always happens for those who end with an exodus. I know several people personally for whom there was either no stage 3 or a very brief one followed quickly by exodus, with no attempt at reconstruction.
The problem for me is that theorists try to make a serial model or a process that is iterative. I think you can ebb and flow between stages. For example, I did have a period when I was teaching Gospel Essentials when I had desires to move back to engagement at times. During reconstruction, there were times when I had flashes of adaptation and re-engagement. So, I think the model really needs to allow for people to exist in multiple stages at the same time. Theory is beautifully and orderly, reality is messy
This is definitely the theorist in me that’s speaking. Models are always abstractions to some degree, or they wouldn’t be models. If you’re going to have two separate stages, or whatever you call them, then they should overlap as little as possible. Otherwise you’re not justified in calling them something different, and you’ve lost some of the power of having a model. The model isn’t meant to capture all of reality—just one aspect of it, and just enough to explain or illuminate the thing being modeled.Anyway, I don’t want to be any more of a nit-picker than that. I really like what you’ve come up with, and I’m obviously not the only one who thinks so. Things like this are helpful in being more self aware, and I’m glad that you spent the time thinking about it and then posted it for discussion.
I found it to be very close to my experience. The “unfreezing” stage seems to be the equivalent of the actual crisis of faith, the thing that breaks your shelf. For me, the initial crisis stage lasted several months, and trickled on for a couple of years after that as I slowly disengaged. Because of family ties and my own slowness to make decisions, it took me probably 4 years before I basically gave up and completely reached the disengaged stage. Right now I’m very actively in the reconstruction phase, taking slow baby steps towards reengagement. I would suggest modifying stages 4 and 5. I think the modification portion of your stage 5 overlaps too much with the reconstruction aspect of stage 4. I think it would be clearer if stage 5 were the end result of reconstruction—either exodus or re-engagement. But I also wonder if stage 4 always happens for those who end with an exodus. I know several people personally for whom there was either no stage 3 or a very brief one followed quickly by exodus, with no attempt at reconstruction.
That was interesting. It kind of takes us back to the original meaning of “testimony,” which is a public witness of something—it is by definition something that’s shared with others, so it’s not something we “have.” It’s maybe not even real until it’s shared. That was interesting. I’m not sure I would use the phrase “other ways of knowing.” I might say “other ways of valuing.” I don’t think art has anything to do with knowing, but everything to do with providing deep experiences and value in our lives that can’t be quantified by science and can’t be contained in knowledge. I feel kind of the same way about intuition. I see intuition as the result of subconscious processes that aren’t under our direct control, but I don’t call it a form of knowledge and I don’t think it should necessarily be valued over our conscious thinking. But it should be part of the input into our decision making, and it can make a big difference in how we feel and experience our lives. I really, really appreciate all the thoughtful and encouraging responses. You’ve all given me things to think about. I wanted to respond to a few individual points that were made. My comments will be focusing on the negative, and I apologize for that. There really were a lot of great ideas that helped me change my perspective, but I need to focus on the areas that I’m still struggling with right now.
DarkJedi wrote:As you point out, faith certainly is not a knowledge, and may not be much more than a hope. Pres. Uchtdorf said:
Quote:Faith is to hope for things which are not seen but which are true
To be honest, I have never liked that definition of faith, because it depends on that last clause: “which are true.” If faith is not knowledge, how do you know the stuff you’re having faith in are true? Requiring the objects of our faith to be true makes it feel too much like blind faith to me. To me, that simply isn’t hope. In his talk
The Infinite Power of HopeQuote:Hope is not knowledge, 17 but rather the abiding trust that the Lord will fulfill His promise to us. It is confidence that if we live according to God’s laws and the words of His prophets now, we will receive desired blessings in the future. 18 It is believing and expecting that our prayers will be answered. It is manifest in confidence, optimism, enthusiasm, and patient perseverance. In the language of the gospel, this hope is sure, unwavering, and active.
In an otherwise amazing talk, I disagree with some of this paragraph. To me, hope is not trust, confidence, or belief; it is not sure. It is wanting, yearning—which leads to optimism, enthusiasm, and perseverance, even in the face of uncertainty. Based on what I hear coming from church headquarters, I doubt that the brethren find mere hope—as I define it—enough to answer the temple recommend questions. I think they expect something more along the lines of Uchtdorf’s quote on hope, which is essentially equivalent to confident belief.
DarkJedi wrote:That said, I do get your desire to be authentic and I think many struggle with this. I think the temple recommend questions are purposely vague and broad so as to allow all that could possibly take part in the experience may do so. I know that sounds a bit orthodox in some ways, but I also bet I could find more orthodox members who would vehemently deny they are vague and that they are very black and white. The point is, I think it is up to our own understanding. Very much like the oft discussed issue of tithing, you must come to your own ideal that you can live with. Personally I do feel comfortable with answering “yes” without more than the hope – sometimes a very feeble hope – that I have.
I am not sure I agree that the questions are purposefully vague. I think they are purposefully simple, to prevent local leaders from engaging in detailed interrogations and requiring nitpicky things that are tangential or not fully endorsed by church headquarters. I also think they intend to put the primary responsibility for understanding and truthfulness on the individual. But I do not think the brethren intended them to be vague or broad. I think they intended them to be orthodox. That’s just my opinion based on what I believe about the brethren, and I understand if others disagree.nibbler wrote:In a court of law the prosecution brings in their expert to testify why something is the case, the defense brings in their expert to testify why it is not the case, and vice versa. Hopefully both experts feel like they are telling the truth. Even though they may be at odds they are both testifying, giving their interpretation of their truth.
I appreciate this. I still take issue with it to a degree. While their testimonies might be at odds, they are still stating things they sincerely believe to be true. I don’t sincerely believe much of anything at this point. I know what I want to be true, but I can’t claim that it IS true. That’s why I still struggle with feeling authentic giving a “yes” answer to the questions.
