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If invited now, I probably would not attend, for a number of reasons. First, I’m an introvert and instinctively shy away from group settings. I would be much more comfortable speaking one-on-one to someone who had demonstrated personal friendship to me first. Second, like SilentDawning, I value my anonymity for now. Probably everyone in my ward knows that there’s something or other going on with me, but they don’t know the details. I don’t want those details coming out, partly because I fear the consequences, but partly because the details of my faith crisis are very emotional and I have difficulty sharing them with anyone, let alone someone I don’t know (except in a completely anonymous setting like StayLDS). Third, I am becoming more comfortable with my own faith and personal direction, so I don’t need a support group as much as I did a year ago. If invited a year or five years ago…. that’s a hard question. I probably would have been most comfortable with the idea of an anonymous conference call or MAYBE a fireside where I could sneak in, sit in the back, and leave early without being noticed if I wanted to. But I think I would have been seriously suspicious that any such event would be some kind of intervention-style trap. It might have depended a lot on how the event was described.
Thanks for letting us know your revised opinion. I was starting to wonder if I should read the book after all. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
For some reason I was assuming you would speak from the outline, which would require some improvising of details to get from point to point. I wish I could be there to hear you give this talk! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It’s kind of hard for me to critique an outline. Do you feel confident about your ability to improvise the details? I wouldn’t. My mind doesn’t work that way. Like others here, your story has both similarities and differences to mine. My mom once called me her Nephi. I was the good kid, the reliable one, the believer. When I stopped believing everything, it crushed me to think of how disappointing it would be to my mom. That didn’t stop me from following my conscience, but it did stop me from talking to anyone about my feelings, and I think that terror and paralysis of talking to anyone about it all really stunted my growth. I have since been able to talk about things to my wife, and it has improved our relationship a ton. Not everyone has that experience, but thankfully I did. I hope you continue to post here and let us in on all that thinking you’re doing. We enjoy hearing new perspectives and discussing things that are hard to talk about in other settings.
cwald wrote:SamBee wrote:Why do Americans always assume we’re all liberal or conservative? I’m neither.
We already have TV church in some areas. Me I like socialization though.
Because we basically have a two party system. …Republicans and Democrats.Btw…. I’m a registered Libertarian…
Yeah, I could go on and on about the USA’s two-party system and how ridiculous it is. I think in truth a large percentage of Americans are more moderate, but it doesn’t pay to run that kind of platform or to vote that way or you never get what you really want. Eventually most people capitulate and end up in one of the two most popular parties. It becomes hard to even think about the idea of there being alternatives.Dave Ramsey is also a Christian and supports paying a religious tithe, although he encourages attaining self reliance first and obviously doesn’t try to define exactly what the tithe means for everyone. I like that the First Presidency’s final word on tithing is that the exact amount is up to the individual, and that the temple recommend question is a yes-no question. My bishop doesn’t even look at the tithing statements—he just takes your word for it. I would hate for the church to get into the business of trying to make people prove they were paying according to any given formula. I do wish leaders and members both would quit teaching that tithing is on gross when that’s not the First Presidency’s actual position. dash1730 wrote:NOONE CAN COMPLETE ALL the commandments: attend 3 hours of church, do your calling for another 5-20 hours, do your home teaching, do missionary work, go to the temple, do volunteer work in the community, take an hour for daily scripture study, prayer and meditation, etc. Few can pay a full tithing (however that is defined), pay a liberal fast offering, support a couple of missionaries, donate significantly to worthwhile causes in the community, region, nation and world.
Quote:Mosiah 4:27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.
I agree completely. Unfortunately, if one of the commandments you don’t complete is tithing, there are major consequences.I appreciate all the replies—I knew everyone here would be sympathetic to my financial situation. I have done a lot of research on tithing and figured out how I’m going to define it and what I’m going to pay. Alas, it’s still a hefty blow in my situation. Too bad my past self couldn’t have seen into the future and taken some of that career advice I got more seriously.
I am really torn about starting to pay tithing again. I have reasons to do it. I also have reasons not to do it—I believe in self-sufficiency, and my family is barely getting along financially. And honestly, it’s really, REALLY tough to see that much money flowing out of my account again. Tougher than I thought it would be. Even if we didn’t need to save up money for the birth of our baby in December, buying an 8-seater minivan to fit our new family size, finally fixing the holes in our ceiling from the plumbing repair we had to make last year, and more—paying tithing will seriously set back our long term financial goal to follow the church’s advice to get out of debt and finally start saving for retirement. I don’t want this to be a budget discussion, but I just wanted to give a brief idea of how paying tithing will impact my family. It’s more than just the sacrament. The sustaining vote is ritualistic. The way we end talks is ritualistic. Our prayers have ritualistic elements. Some of them aren’t really bothersome to me—others are. nibbler wrote:This is certainly the exception but I know someone that stopped attending church because they were confronted about why they had not participated in the sacrament. The sacrament still has elements that show externally despite the spirit of the sacrament having nothing to do with an external show. A person that doesn’t take the sacrament might have anxiety about what the person sitting next to them will think of them, enough anxiety to stop attending. The person next to them may wonder “what did they do?,” even though they know it’s none of their business. Apparently some may even make it their business.
This has bothered me for a long time. After I had my crisis of faith, I stopped taking the sacrament. I didn’t feel comfortable making promises about things I didn’t believe in the name of a person I wasn’t sure was real, knowing that people were watching me and assuming I believed those things when they saw me take the sacrament. Of course, now I have the opposite problem—people seeing me NOT take the sacrament and assuming things about me. I’ve never been confronted by anyone, but I am sure there are at least some people who are watching me and assuming that I am sinning.Old-Timer wrote:I love symbolism, so I like the concept of symbolic ritual.
I don’t care very much about the exact nature of any symbolic ritual, which means I appreciate just about any ritual that has symbolic meaning for people. Any particular ritual might or might not resonate with me, but I have no problem whatsoever with most rituals that are meant to be symbolic in nature. On the other hand, I have little or no use for non-symbolic ritual – and that exists more than most people realize.
Also, just to say it clearly, nearly everyone practices rituals in one way or another. Ritual isn’t really the question; it’s symbolic ritual. Therefore, the central question really is about how one views symbolism – and, especially, symbolism in ritual form.
People who are more literally minded generally either love ritual (because they don’t understand the symbolism) or hate it (because they see and reject symbolism). There rarely is much middle ground for those people. People who are more symbolically oriented have a much broader range of reaction, since they are interpreting and evaluating the symbolism of the ritual.
It really isn’t the symbolism that’s bothersome to me. I’ve studied symbolism in both literature and philosophy. I like thinking about symbolism. I have been pretty excited by ways of looking at scripture symbolically that I’ve seen discussed here, including the temple ceremony. But it’s really the ideas behind the symbolism that excite me. The physical requirements of the ritual I simply see as unnecessary. I think what really bothers me with certain rituals is when they are (1) public and (2) required. This sets up potentially unhealthy social expectations and enables manipulation by those who are in power and/or who view them as literal.I really liked Uchtdorf’s talk in the priesthood meeting. I hope it will combat some of the judgmentalism we see in the church. Here is a summary of all the talks—maybe you will find it useful:
Thanks for pointing that out. I haven’t been listening to Mormon Matters recently but I will definitely check this one out. I also appreciate you sharing this story. I had a similar experience. Last year my wife and I were asked to help with a large stake activity (a dinner for the seniors in the stake). It was really hard for both of us to be involved since we have such young kids, but I enjoyed helping out and making some people happy.
