[Daeruin]

I find them helpful mostly because they help me realize that what I’m going through is normal and that there is a better place ahead.

[Daeruin]

Kinglamoni — yes, when I keep saying I “don’t believe in Jesus” those are my 8-year-old’s words and his understanding. The truth is more complicated, so I’ve now realized that the trick will be explaining it to him in a way his young brain can understand while still feeling like I’ve maintained my integrity.

Roy — thank you for your comments. I fully agree with your interpretation of sealings, and it’s even something I’ve talked to my wife about. But it’s hard to explain something like that to a little kid who has family members and primary teachers filling his head with literal ordinance talk. I like the Dumbo metaphor! Maybe that could help—although I don’t think he’s seen that movie yet.

[Daeruin]

Kipper wrote:

Some things are OK but sometimes the reply “we don’t know…” doesn’t sit well with me. This is one of those because of the “revelation” that occurred. In my eye, a revelation cannot be backed out of or changed unless it was false to begin with. I need to be able to give a definite answer to things like this when asked

You may need to reevaluate what “revelation” really means. Perhaps it’s not as straightforward as we would like.

[Daeruin]

I really appreciate all the replies here. I don’t have much time to spend here anymore, which is why I haven’t responded yet. I’ve written a few comments on other threads, because I feel it’s important to give at least as much as I get. So… I still don’t know for sure what I’m going to do. I guess I might be over thinking it. He’s only 8 years old. I probably don’t need to try to nuance my explanation too much. Maybe something like “I want you to know that I do have faith in Jesus (meaning I believe he was a real person, and he taught good things), and I’m trying really hard to follow what he taught, like loving and being kind to everyone, and always trying to do better.” Then if further questions come up about things I’m not doing or doing differently, I can emphasize how important it is to let everyone believe in their own way. If he starts to worry about the temple sealing thing, I can explain that I think the most important thing is to love each other and try to be better, and that I don’t believe a loving Heavenly Father would split us up as long as we’re trying our best (which is true).

[Daeruin]

We read from the Book of Mormon most nights as a family. My kids are young enough that we don’t spend a long time on this. Our youngest is usually in bed by the time we do family scripture reading, but the next is still just 3 years old and we have to cater to that kind of attention span. DW and I are usually exhausted to boot, and if the kids are tired, cranky, or hyper there’s a strong chance of tempers being lost (theirs and ours) in the middle of scripture reading, and that’s obviously something we strive to avoid. So we just read one verse per kid, giving the longer ones to the older kids. We stop between scriptures to give definitions, ask questions, or summarize to make sure the kids are following the story. It only takes us about 10 minutes. If there is something doctrinal to discuss, I usually try to stay out of it and let my wife handle that part since she’s a faithful believer and more concerned about accuracy in that arena.

[Daeruin]

This talk would be very hard for me, too. The first thing I thought of that might help is this talk:

http://geoffsn.blogspot.com/2012/08/russell-hancock-on-testimony-and-church.html

I might talk about the basic meaning of “revelation” as “the process of something being revealed” and expand upon that. I would talk about it in the expansive terms that Joseph Smith might have used, as receiving light and truth. It’s not like a single formula that works exactly the same every single time for every single person. I might even argue that education and science are simply other forms of revelation.

[Daeruin]

Done. Thanks for pointing it out to us.

[Daeruin]

This topic lies very close to the things that I struggle with, as well. As I read over the prep materials that you were given, I was struck by the different ways in which some of the words are being used. I think there’s an implied definition that may be different from the one that you or I might have as a result of our thoughtfulness and study. Jeff Burton highlights this difference really well in his book For Those Who Wonder:

Jeff Burton wrote:

2. Doubting is not necessarily a rejection of God or the church.

Again, it is important to recognize the multiple meanings of doubt. In its modern, constructive sense, it means to be unsettled in belief or opinion, to be uncertain or undecided. It implies a lack of information or evidence upon which to base a belief. Doubt, according to this usage, is an inevitable consequence of a maturing, inquiring mind and should be managed, not denied.

In contrast, the more traditional meaning of doubt is the notion of distrust or disloyalty. In a religious context, doubt is often associated with a rejection of God and a thankless denial of his goodness. Naturally, in this context, it has a negative connotation.

Helping Suggestion: Point out that those who are aware of differences of meaning can avoid being hurt (or avoid offending others) by choosing their words carefully and defining any likely-to-be misunderstood expressions.

I think the way “doubt” is used in your notes more closely aligns with the way Burton describes the more traditional or religious use of the word. It might be helpful to explain this difference in shades of meaning, or simply to be aware of it and make sure you use your language carefully. Instead of saying “doubt” you might instead talk about “feeling uncertain” or “having sincere questions.” There are lots of other great quotes from Burton’s book. I recommend checking it out, especially the first chapter.

I also thought of a quote from Terryl Givens’s “Letter to a Doubter,” which reflects what others have said:

Terryl Givens wrote:

The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true and which we have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing to be true. There must be grounds for doubt as well as belief, in order to render the choice more truly a choice, and therefore the more deliberate, and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. An overwhelming preponderance of evidence on either side would make our choice as meaningless as would a loaded gun pointed at our heads. The option to believe must appear on one’s personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. Fortunately, in this world, one is always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.

The call to faith, in this light, is not some test of a coy god, waiting to see if we “get it right.” It is the only summons, issued under the only conditions, which can allow us fully to reveal who we are, what we most love, and what we most devoutly desire. Without constraint, without any form of mental compulsion, the act of belief becomes the freest possible projection of what resides in our hearts. Like the poet’s image of a church bell that only reveals its latent music when struck, or a dragonfly that only flames forth its beauty in flight, so does the content of a human heart lie buried until action calls it forth. The greatest act of self-revelation occurs when we choose what we will believe, in that space of freedom that exists between knowing that a thing is, and knowing that a thing is not.

This is the realm where faith operates, and when faith is a freely chosen gesture, it expresses something essential about the self.

[Daeruin]

What is the event you’re hearing him at?

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I absolutely love this. Major step forward.

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As someone who has lived in Utah all my life (well, 95% of it), I agree with a lot of what RagDoll Sally is saying—but not all of it. Local leadership roulette is just as big an issue in Utah as anywhere else. Great local leadership in a ward can make a huge, positive difference, no matter what area of the state you’re in. I feel like I had a really great ward and community growing up in Utah Valley. I would have been a great target for bullies as a kid, but I never experienced it, not in church or in school. I have honestly been shocked at all the reports of church bullying I’ve heard lately. I’ve either been naive or just living under a rock, but I never would have expected such awful behavior from members of the LDS church. I’ve never known anyone like that in my own wards in Utah. In my experience the greater problem is conformist thinking. I might be moving again sometime soon to get closer to work, and it will likely be to one of the most conformist areas of all Mormondom: Provo. I dread that.

Anyway, sorry that I don’t have any real advice on your problem. I really hope you can figure out something that works for you and your family.

[Daeruin]

Thanks for the update!

Just curious—what was the book? Sounds like something I might enjoy.

[Daeruin]

There are some good recommendations here! I’ve seen a fair number of these films. Some of them I’m sure are not rated R (Amelia, Edge of Tomorrow, Jack Reacher, Limitless, Oblivion—all great films that I have seen), but I’ll forgive you.

In general I’m not a fan of raunchy comedies or horror. The furthest I go into horror is films like The Others and The Village. I can’t watch modern war films with lots of realistic violence. I was scarred by some films like that as a kid, and I can get physically ill from certain kinds of violence. I actually passed out during a movie one time. So movies like Saving Private Ryan and Apocalypse Now will unfortunately never be on my list. For some reason that doesn’t extend to historical films that don’t involve guns, so I was fine with Braveheart and Gladiator, which are both in my top 10 favorites. I was also fine with the ridiculous gore in the recent Hansel and Gretel film, too, although the movie was terrible.

I also have to work around my dear wife. We went through that uncritical R-rated movie watching phase together, but she rebounded further than I did. I have to work on her really hard to get her to watch an R-rated movie these days. I convinced her to watch Looper when it came out, and we both liked it. I think the last one we saw before that was The King’s Speech, which really didn’t need to be rated R (it had a few F-words, that’s all).

Ones I’ve seen: Almost Famous, Amelie, Bridget Jones Diary, Gladiator, High Fidelity, The King’s Speech, Legends of the Fall, Love Actually, Shakespeare in Love, The Terminator.

Ones I’ll be putting on my list: Be Kind Rewind, Bottle Rocket, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, The Godfather, Good Will Hunting, Gran Torino, The Green Mile, Next Stop Wonderland, Office Space, Pulp Fiction, Shawshank Redemption, When Harry Met Sally.

Thanks, everyone! Keep the recommendations coming.

[Daeruin]

My parents used to have Postum sometimes. I loved it.

[Daeruin]

Thanks so much for all the thoughtful replies. After posting this I realized that there are many people who love and value and possibly even need social interaction in the church. I didn’t mean anything I said to be dismissive of that. I think it’s great that there are so many different perspectives and personalities I the church. I do wish leaders would take that into account more often.

There are certain things I really enjoy doing already. I like singing in the choir, helping set up or take down chairs, helping people move, and things like that. I am at a point where I think I could finally accept a calling, but I would hope it’s something that takes account of my social needs (or lack thereof).

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