[DancingCarrot]

From my understanding, threat of forced social isolation is a useful evolutionary tool. Useful, not necessarily healthy or good. We are all social creatures that need relationships to survive so the fear of that being purposefully revoked is terrifying because its life ending, in a way. Nowadays it’s probably overused and unnecessary as there are many more people, communities, modes of travel, economic opportunities available to make establishing a new social network possible. And it is useful in high-stakes situations such as military, crisis, or first responders. There is little room for individual variation in those types of survival situations.

But for the vast majority of the developed world, our day-to-day isn’t survival, and our use of social rejection is probably a holdover of our historical biology. To use mom3’s analogy, someone’s gotta pull the yarn into a blanket.

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[DancingCarrot]

DJ, oh I see. I guess I’ve always been in areas with a large enough YSA population to warrant a separate ward.

In my metro area, we’re still keeping SS classes, just every other week that alternates with PH/RS. Unless I misunderstood the announcement…?

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[DancingCarrot]

I thought every ward was going to every other week SS that rotates with PH/RS…? In that regard, both family and singles wards are changing in January. I’ve always found it odd that singles wards tend to put a lot more emphasis on SS classes, but perhaps that’s because we have more free time due to no spouse or children.

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[DancingCarrot]

My simple answer is I don’t try to keep myself in a constant state of enjoyment. Interestingly, when I’m feeling down and then feel down about feeling down it takes me longer to find gratitude and wonder again.

I just recently came out of a really difficult time with regards to work. Nothing was wrong, no one was mean – it’s just the nature of the career and experience level clashing. Until they didn’t. What helped was taking a break from the stresses (I took a solo trip and as a counterpoint to your situation, I found myself longing to tag along with someone’s ideas instead of being responsible for everything), as well as remembering that I am able to contribute to my life as well. Just that simple thought helped me to redouble my efforts with a friend and that has helped sustain our relationship and buoy me up as I returned from my trip.

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[DancingCarrot]

Wow, what a great find! I found myself simultaneously feeling accepted, at peace, and motivated. What a wonderful thing. Thank you so much for sharing it.

I can’t find just a few quotes to share, so I’ll just add my voice to say watch it! It’ll be a positive point in your day. Also, I hope and believe that this is the direction the church goes in. One thing that struck me as I watched the devotional was that the work and disruption from being an early adopter of change is something the church doesn’t deal with, at least as far as I’ve noticed, since the church is not often an early adopter of change. On the one hand it can be and is disappointing waiting for change, especially when so many people could benefit from it. However, I am also grateful that the church isn’t a tumultuous place, where every new idea or thought is experimented with. I much prefer the staying power of a government over the whims of a start-up (as a metaphor and example, not to be taken that literally).

[DancingCarrot]

Thanks, Curt. I was actually thinking how you’ve mentioned that other talk several times, and I’m happy to have your lessons on it as well.

[DancingCarrot]

Quote:

If I repent and am forgiven, and then commit the same sin again, my previous repentance will be revoked.

This is one that I held onto for an obscenely long time. It caused my teenage and early 20s self to be wracked with self-worth issues and always wondering “Have I done enough? What counts as penitent? Am I sorry enough? How bad do I have to feel for my repentance to be accepted?” I still struggle with deciphering between perfectionism/scrupulosity and excellence/good enough. Sometimes it feels like I’m on the opposite side of the spectrum when I’ve only moved a couple of dials.

Quote:

If a prophet or Church leader tells me to do something that is wrong, and I do it anyway, then I will be blessed for my obedience and the Church leader will be punished.

…..

And the third created a toxic relationship with the Church that compelled me, for a time, to surrender my own judgment to institutional pronouncements. It tempted me to substitute obedience for moral reasoning and to justify my own spiritual errors with the comforting thought that, if I just obeyed hard enough, somebody else would have to pay for it.

I wasn’t concerned about someone else being able to pay the price, however I was very concerned at not receiving blame or punishment because that meant I was a bad person. Again, I think this has a lot more to do with my own natural tendencies, especially considering neither of my siblings have issues with this or at least none that they talk about, but it’s quite an unfortunate combination that I’ve learned how to manage better. That’s why words like these bring me comfort:

Quote:

But leaving the harbor is a dangerous proposition for a person on a ship. You might get lost. You might hit a storm and sink. And you might find someplace that you like better than your own harbor and stay there. It happens all the time. People don’t come back, or they change so much while they are at sea that nobody even recognizes them when they return.

Quote:

A ship in harbor is safe, but that’s not what ships are built for.

Ships are built to ride the waves, not become the ocean floor, if they have a competent crew. I’m learning abilities to navigate the seas so that I can go through waters I’ve never seen before, with a crew that’s ready to adventure through whatever we come across. Sometimes the place will be so beautiful we’ll spend a lot of time there, other places we won’t need to even go near.

[DancingCarrot]

Roy wrote:

Lawyers are not especially constrained by the truth. Legal cases in some ways are a battle of competing alternate realities.

Very good point. In a large sense, lawyers are trying to prove their case (or at least poke a big enough hole in someone else’s case), not necessarily adhering to Capital T Truth. I would bet that a lot of them believe they’re the proponents of the truth, whether or not that’s objectively provable.

Roy wrote:

I imagine that President Oaks would wish to avoid that. Therefore he puts forward a reality where why the church does what it does is open to constant speculation and error, However what the church does is unassailable and divine. The leaders of the church implementing the policy might misunderstand and even teach errors about why the policy exists but the policy itself must be God’s will because this is God’s church and God is in charge. He would not permit HIS church to enact something that is against His will and purpose.

There’s this big conundrum with how we speak about the church: that the organization of the church itself is perfect, ordained by God, and directed by Christ BUT the people running it are imperfect. How we as a people are able to keep the level of cognitive dissonance alive to sustain two paradoxes simultaneously beats me. I think it’s simply a lot to process to realize that your church that you’ve been taught to rely on for certainties in life turns out to be run by completely fallible yet usually well-intentioned humans is a big pill to swallow, therefore a lot of people don’t. Or they take a while to digest it.

Also, it *may* be God’s church, but it’s also staffed with humans so expecting it to be run precisely how God wants at all times for his exact will and purpose sounds eerily similar to Satan’s plan. Just saying.

Even the best project managers know that you can’t control everything and real skill comes into play when things don’t go according to plan. Because they will. I can’t believe in a God that has a finely tuned plan for every detail anymore, it just doesn’t work for me nor does it inspire me. I am intrigued and hopeful for a God that is just as big a player in the experience as we are, is improvising because us other players have choices and abilities to exercise as well, and responds with the flux of life that is constantly in motion. That’s what gives me hope.

[DancingCarrot]

I don’t want the detail the thread, but thanks heber13. Just being validated by you helps. Looks like someone is exercising their Christ-like compassion muscles…BECOMING more like Christ, dare I say! [emoji6] Derail averted!

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[DancingCarrot]

I really like your explanation, DJ. Especially because it forces me to admit that sometimes when I say I want justice, what I’m actually seeking for is punishment.

I also appreciate Curt’s explanation of the church getting what it deserves. The low membership among African Americans, the low numbers in Africa compared to other religions seem expected.

My two cents lie in the sense that I don’t think the church/general leadership believe there is much of anything to repent of, barring racism of the past and present. (Which is good on the one hand, seeing as there are plenty of churches in the USA where that is not the case. However, I hesitate to stop at congratulating people for being against racism.) My thing is that, overall, the revelation is viewed as necessary and inspired by God in a way I disagree with heavily. So it’s not so much that the church repented as it teaches repentance, so much as it was continuing to follow inspiration from God. To me, that smacks of arrogance that I cannot condone.

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[DancingCarrot]

Sure, I can agree with then-Elder Oaks since I’m not sure that the clock ever really strikes the 12th hour, except perhaps in a few select cases. I like the reminder, though. My agreement is with God, and that is where my focus lies.

I will add, though, that it’s difficult to have a parent who IS concerned with both the timeline and checklist ordinances. I tend to date outside of the church and will likely marry that way, and it casts such a dark cloud in my mind when I think of all the conversations or disappointment specifically my one parent would feel at something that’s, in my mind, a wonderful thing to be celebrated.

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[DancingCarrot]

I think what bothers me most about the use of that phrase is that people tend to use it to gain moral superiority. “I choose to believe in X, which keeps me in the church which then makes me a better person.” With the church activity ultimately being the moral choice, despite belief. Additionally, being defined as a Believer or Non-Believer is problematic because I dislike being characterized by things that I am not. I am not a physicist, teacher, CEO, godmother, etc etc, but I do not qualify myself as such.

I also thought the person’s part about everyone leaving and returning in some way was true; and if someone doesn’t leave in any way then they become the elder son in the prodigal son parable and therefore miss out on the abundance of God because they’re too focused on their own righteousness. It is freeing to not be anxiously engaged in worrying about all the things I have to do to be acceptable to God.

A little more tongue in cheek, if I’m not fully human then what was Jesus for and what is God left to do?

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[DancingCarrot]

This comment caught my attention:

I always get squirmy when people talk about “choosing to believe,” or some other willed, conscious process as the explanation for why they are still in the Church while others are gone. We should collectively stop making that attribution error.

I also strongly suspect that almost everyone in the pews leaves in one way or another at some point in their lives, and returns on different terms. We are all prodigals, sooner or later. Even if we stay, like the eldest son in the parable, and miss the Father’s abundance because of a narrow focus on our own righteousness… which makes us prodigal, too.

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[DancingCarrot]

I loved the article, Curt. Well, at first I was uneasy about it because I didn’t see how it could have a turn around, and it kept going in one direction. But I really enjoyed it. Thanks for posting it. I agree with you in that I’m not sure it’ll change anything, but it could and it’s encouraging that this woman engaged with a GA at all. Hope is not nothing.

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[DancingCarrot]

Dande, love the questions. Roy, I also appreciate hearing your response and I like your approach of “rewiring” your covenants from the church to god. Your example from the scriptures is very illustrative.

My questions would be:

-What if I don’t think God wanted me to ever get baptized or go through the temple? In the scripture you reference it mentions “as a witness to him”, but I’m curious as to why God would need a witness. It makes more sense that we, ourselves and our communities, need witnesses more than God would.

-In the first scripture it also mentions being of God’s people. My question is when did I ever stop?

Just questions that I’d love to hear others’ input to, as I wrestle with the answers myself.

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