[DancingCarrot]

I’m not sure about priesthood power (directly from God) either.

I’m an endowed, single woman of 25, but the ordinances unraveled for me when I coupled them with agency and the idea of things being worked out in the next life. For example, if a couple got married in the temple in this life, but deep down were unhappy, and in the next life they don’t want to be married, as far as I understand it, they don’t have to be married to each other. By fact of agency. I took that thinking and applied it to different scenarios, and concluded that what the Church calls essential and saving ordinances don’t carry the same weight for me. That doesn’t mean that I don’t think they’re beautiful or carry deep symbolic meaning, but I don’t think of them literally at all anymore.

I agree with nibbler when he talked about man needing it to feel justified. I know plenty of people that don’t feel comfortable with their decisions unless they have enough people or enough authority to back it up. That’s fine by me, but I won’t be in the same party.

To answer the question directly, I’m not sure that humans do have a conferred priesthood power. I think all the power we need already lies inside each of us, and it’s just waiting to be discovered.

[DancingCarrot]

For a long time I’ve had a intellectual/conceptual relationship with Christ: I can understand the teachings, see why the traits he espouses are better than the opposites, etc. But until very recently I’ve never had a experiential relationship with Christ. I firmly believe Alma 32:27 that literally a particle of faith is necessary. That doesn’t always mean that you want to give up how you live your life or how you think currently, but “Hey, could you possibly maybe help me with this because I want to learn of you, but I really don’t see past anything that I have right now. I don’t have anything else to go on and that’s why I’m like this right now, but if there’s something better will you help me to see it?” Seriously, and in my recent experience, this is all it takes for the Atonement to take effect. I have been petrified to let go of some of the things I’ve held onto, and I’ve prayed like that! “Hey, I’m really freaking out here because I really like my ideas right now and I’m not super keen on giving them up. But can you help?” Slowly, and I literally don’t even know how, I have been able to loosen my grasp. I have also been able to develop qualities I couldn’t dream of having. I would see these gifts in others, and want to posses them, but have no idea what to do. Even if I tried to develop them completely on my own, the results were mediocre at best. Shifting my focus in praying to “How do I PERSONALLY exhibit this trait? Will you help me develop this for the benefit of me and your other children because I’m tired of being very human in this specific capacity?” Recognizing that how I develop characteristics will look different from everyone else because we are all different. And it’s cool that I don’t show love or patience exactly like Sally or Bobby, but knowing that how we each exemplify the traits is enough: we don’t need to be carbon copies.

I don’t understand HOW the Atonement works, but I have felt it in myself. And as it says in 2 Nephi 9:7, “it must needs be an infinite atonement,” meaning that anyone who has ever or will ever line up to the mindset that allows the power of the Atonement to take place (for an awesome article series about this check out this http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2012/12/the-wise-man-doubts-ofte/” class=”bbcode_url”>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2012/12/the-wise-man-doubts-ofte/, it’s a 4 part series and #3 and #4 are the best in my opinion). I’ve read some stuff on mindfulness, the Tao, and Buddhism, and there is no question that those are the Gospel. When I read books or articles about them I feel Light. I feel as though I’ve found a cheat code for mortality. I don’t understand how ordinances are required, but if they are then that’s all those people need. Not joking.

As a side note, addressing how you thought the Church should behave if Christ was truly at the helm, and I don’t mean this question in any derogatory way-I’m simply asking to ask: Even if you have Christ as the center of your life at all times, would that mean that you won’t make ANY mistakes? Or do you think that your mistakes will be “less” because they have a better focus? For me there are only really a few kind of mistakes: those made in ignorance (a VAST majority of people’s mistakes), those made while trying to become better (working with more knowledge, but struggling in the practice because changing is difficult), and those made in open rebellion (meaning you have the knowledge of a principle AND why it needs to be heeded, but you don’t want to so you consciously, continually choose the opposite). I believe Christ and Father are directing this Church. I also believe that they will never violate anyone’s agency so they need to be Master Level Improvisers to be able to jump on any and all opportunities that result from all of our choices. And I try to throw forgiveness and charity into the mix because, really, we are all so human. It gets in the way of a lot, unfortunately. I used to hate people for it, but then I came to the realization that that hatred was a projection of all the times when I hated myself for not meeting my own expectations. So as I’ve been able to lighten up on myself, I’ve been able to do the same for others.

[DancingCarrot]

Mom3, I would like to give of my experience in an attempt to answer your inquiry.

Personally, I have zero problem with confrontation. Not contention, mind you, but confrontation. When I’m being really selfish I point out everything I see and say why I don’t agree with it. When I’m better and with the spirit, I am more able to discern when to shut my mouth. [emoji5]️ This entire month interestingly has been focused on priesthood, in my ward. I KNOW that I don’t understand all the differences and nuances between Priesthood and priesthood. So when the discussion is about keys, I try to listen and keep a prayer in my heart that I’ll understand a little more. However, when the opportunity presents itself to widen the scope of the priesthood (power vs keys in my mind) I barrel through that door as quickly as I can. I did that on Sunday. With tact of course. [emoji6] You know what? Another sister and a counselor in the bishopric both thanked me for my comments and perspective. It’s not that I give up my quest for understanding, it’s that I acknowledge what I don’t have and try to give what I do have in a loving and helpful manner.

[DancingCarrot]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

I do think some doctrine is time or situation bound based on the limitations of people at a time or place. But generally speaking, I think what really changes is man’s understanding of the divine will.

I definitely agree with this. DJ, I think that separating church and gospel and doctrine is very, very tricky, and I applaud your desire to separate them. I think that’s how I get away with not caring about certain things other people are really rooted to. A really useful piece of advice I saw recently was from this Facebook page called “Humans of New York.” This photographer goes around the streets of NYC and takes pictures of anybody, has a conversation with them, and then posts what he got from them. No judgment or bias, just plain information. Last week or so he posted a picture of a boy who couldn’t have been older than 14. He asked him “What’s one piece of advice you would give a large group of people?” He replied, “Just because you admire someone, it doesn’t mean you have to be like them.” There was an explanation of how he tried to dress like a skate boarding idol and his friends made fun of him for it. Then he realized that even though he admired this guy, he didn’t have to dress and act like him because who he was was already acceptable. I LOVE taking methods/hypotheses/ideas/etc from people I admire, usually because I admire them for their strength, intelligence, integrity and the like. But this FB post helped me see that even if something works for someone else, that it doesn’t have to work for me. I realize that people in the church “need” some of the things they interpret as doctrine (my own mother included, for things I disagree with her on vehemently), but it is not my place to knock her off of her belief stool regardless of what it is. Nor do I need to twist my brain to try and accept something she does.

I hope I didn’t come off as accusatory or demeaning. That certainly wasn’t my intention. I was trying to say that the way a lot of members speak about doctrine is usually the application of a doctrine, and not necessarily the doctrine itself. And that I don’t like it and try not to do it myself. It can all get very jumbled, but as I said before, I think you’ll find a lot of peace in being able to separate the two. I wish you the best!!

[DancingCarrot]

I’ll admit that almost always when I refer to doctrine I’m doing the “LDS speak” of God’s doctrine. IE doesn’t change. What I’ve noticed, however, is that what we often talk as doctrine in the church is usually an application of doctrine. Do this in this situation type of thing. I think it’s easier for us to talk in this manner, even though I don’t think it’s correct nor our place to provide sweeping applications of doctrine because as it’s been stated situations necessitate different actions, but I do not think that we are correct in speaking this way. It’s clearly evident (especially in this forum) that when we make sweeping generalizations and esteem certain ways of applying doctrine over others that we narrow the scope of the gospel and put ourselves in boxes. It is much more freeing to talk of doctrines in their core, but I know that it scares certain people because that freedom and resulting responsibility is not what they’re looking for.

[DancingCarrot]

I really, really like what nibbler said. And it fits within the actual Mormon model because if it’s true that only our testimony and experience/knowledge rise with us, then those would be the actual blessings to be on the lookout for here. Those types of blessings can come immediately as soon as we are in a capacity/state of mind to receive them. Plus we can carry them wherever we go so they’re much more valuable than any tangible reward or item on a checklist. Even though some days I’d really, really like for Father to give me some job or date some person or whatever else I can think of, ultimately I’d rather learn how to become a person who can understand and love and learn and mourn and uplift.

[DancingCarrot]

I haven’t researched it much, but as far as I can tell Agnostic Theism seems to apply pretty well. I really wanted there to be one and tried to act like it (mostly through prayer even though they suddenly felt very empty). I’m INTJ and have a pretty developed sense of “I need to reach conclusions.” Sometimes that serves me well and sometimes it screws me over. This time, it helped me see pretty quickly that agnosticism as a permanent, unchanging view of the world (especially compared to my one previously) wouldn’t work for me. If there are SO many things that are unknowable in the world, I literally don’t know how to function in that world. Or if only certain things are knowable, I might feel really limited and get depressed anyway. So it’s a double-edged sword as I see it.

I think the way I can come out of this the best is considering Father’s character. Or at least what I would hope for in a supreme creator and overseer. In my own life, I have become intimately acquainted with the principle of agency. There is just so much power and ability in choice. I know that they’re limited by circumstance, but in my mind, a Father would take that into consideration and would never fault anyone for their environment. So we start with his unyielding attachment to honoring agency. He isn’t going to change your mind or make you do things you don’t want to do. Obedience for Obedience’s sake is off the table. That blows a huge hole in a lot of people’s perception about the church and gospel. It’s incredibly liberating, but also comes with plenty of responsibility in my opinion. Yay!

So the only being I can believe in is one who wants me to make my own decisions for my own reasons. If he loves me, which I assume he does, then the things he asks me to do MUST have a reason because obedience for obedience’s sake is not an option. Then I start to ask why. But the big key, I think, is to try it out WHILE asking questions and pondering. It’s almost like going to college. On the one hand, I can complain about the necessity of college (which is debatable but not part of this discussion ) and not go to college and I will never discover why people believe it’s this great big thing that everyone has to go through. OR I can try college out and still hold on to my doubts about whether it’s necessary or not. And I can glean experiences that I wouldn’t have received otherwise. And I can complete a degree or not; that is still my choice. But I won’t have the experiential knowledge if I don’t go to college. The questions can still remain, and I can even come to the conclusion afterwards that it was totally not necessary, but the decision to obey with faith that I’ll learn SOMETHING is paramount. That humility and openness is what gives me knowledge.

That’s basically how I approach the gospel/church: one giant Fruit Check. However, it’s obedience coupled with wondering, questioning, and pondering. And in my mind that’s how Father works. Maybe it’s confirmation bias. I don’t want to get too reductionist, though. I may just be a wonderful voodoo mama who’s created a deity!

[DancingCarrot]

I really like the idea of intellectual agnosticism and emotional/spiritual theism. Because when I separate myself into the intellectual and spiritual aspects, those are the things that come along with them. However, I can’t be fully either one of them since I am always both of them. The reason why agnosticism seems so cold and empty to me, and perhaps others, is because I am only paying attention to one side of me. It’s not that the two sides of me must be pitted against each other and one must win, but to incorporate and learn from both and use both. Yin and yang if you will. Both are necessary.

[DancingCarrot]

Thanks for that dichotomy, Ray. That’s a very interesting way to approach it. I like it.

[DancingCarrot]

I agree that some things are subject to interpretation. Ah, the inexplicable experience of mortality never ceases to amaze me.

First and foremost, I don’t think that what either of these individuals set out to do was wrong. To have thoughtful discussions about anything really (I mean I could go on about the laws in this country and yet I will always be an American) is NOT bad. However, I do think that how it is approached needs to attended to. I haven’t followed John Dehlin really at all. I have a small picture of what he does, but nothing really big. I have somewhat followed the OW story and the biggest thing I can see is their methods. I think some of them are good (IE asking the leadership to ponder and ask for revelation), but some of them leave me feeling icky. I fear that because the focus might be on the What of these people/groups instead of also the How, a lot of people might get offended because they believe the process that they’re using to be infallible. That’s the crux of almost every situation, in my opinion. If what you’re asking and how you’re asking is never up for evaluation, then I fear for you my friends because the answer you’re seeking might be bigger than the box you have to receive it.

[DancingCarrot]

I just lost all of what I wrote…so I will try to recapture what I had. :think:

http://www.alittlebitofpersonality.com/2013/10/the-cognition-process-in-stick-figures.html?m=1” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.alittlebitofpersonality.com/2013/10/the-cognition-process-in-stick-figures.html?m=1 I love this explanation. The stick figures are fun, plus I love visuals. I find that when I focus too much on “type” and not enough on the actual cognitive functions, I eventually run into the walls of the box of the type. It’s incredibly frustrating to not be able to expand beyond, but that’s what the functions do so I try to stick to them. For my friend, the biggest key was realizing what energy was hers and what was other people’s. Once she figured out that the majority of what she was experiencing wasn’t hers, she was able to find ways to objectively deal with what was coming in whether it was disregarding it because she didn’t feel prompted to approach the situation or gearing up to head into the fray. Either way, sorting out what’s yours and what’s not, I imagine, will help immensely. I’m INTJ so I try to understand these things as best I can, but I can only go so far.

http://personalitycafe.com/intj-articles/76896-recognizing-inferior-function-intj.html” class=”bbcode_url”>http://personalitycafe.com/intj-articles/76896-recognizing-inferior-function-intj.html This comes from an INTJ forum, but it applies to both our types because it’s talking about when we aren’t using our functions properly. It is a bit long like the other one, but it has some great information. The basic point that I come away with is one that I find is brought up on here frequently: Don’t make mountains out of mole hills. And I truly mean that lovingly, not dismissively. So often when we get frustrated, irritated and don’t know how to deal with it (whether it’s because we don’t have the skills and this is a learning experience or we’re not being smart and using what we already have) we focus on the small things that we feel we can conquer to feel good about ourselves because the alternative is tackling the ACTUAL problem yet feeling inadequate and realizing that we might fall. Hard. That inadequacy can come from external or internal pressures, it doesn’t matter. But for as long as we focus on the details and not the actual problem, we will get nowhere. That’s hopefully where a Fruit Check should come in. “Hmmm, I’ve been pondering this thing in this way for a while and it doesn’t seem to be producing anything useful or good. I wonder if it’s because I’m focusing on the wrong thing? I wonder if it’s because I haven’t considered a different line of thinking? I wonder if it’s because I don’t have the knowledge or ability to do XYZ yet and I need to ask Father for help because I can’t do this on my own? I wonder……..” I’m just coming out of an experience like this. I have been standing in my own way for a while, and even deep down I knew it. But I wanted control and I wanted the solution and I wanted and I wanted and I wanted. I wasn’t being humble (which is NOT the same thing as thinking less of/about yourself). I was wanting all of the answers to come from me and I wanted to be happy about it. It wasn’t until my friend, the INFJ, pointed out that I was making everything about me. Once I stepped back from the situation I realized this immediately.

I don’t know if this was very helpful or applies to any of your situation at all. Please, if you’re interested let’s continue the conversation, maybe with more specific items if you want, because I feel like my experience may just be able to help you.

[DancingCarrot]

I know this topic is SUPER old but I was browsing for MBTI and this came up. SD, one of my best friends is INFJ and she is the most grounded of any members I know. Granted, she has also participated in most things under the sun so she has lots of life experience. But there is no way she will ever be shaken from where she stands. She speaks up in church constantly. Interestingly enough, she told me the more she is her true self the more people are drawn to her (per usual for INFJs) and can unlock themselves as a result. Basically her being her “gives” others permission to find and be who they are. Like that quote about our greatest fear isn’t that we’re inadequate, it’s that we’re powerful beyond measure. I acknowledge that depending on the leadership it might be more or less difficult, but if you have a balanced INFJ on your hands, the only people who aren’t being edified are the ones who don’t want it. Anyway, you can PM if you want more info. Her and I talk about it all the time.

Edited: edified autocorrected to deified. Funny correction!

[DancingCarrot]

A friend posted this on Facebook today and I really enjoy it. I’ve been trying to get into the practice of mindfulness, and I think both Old-Timer’s daughter’s poem and this comic strip fit beautifully. What if we let go of our need for control? What would happen if we really were that flexible?

http://kiriakakis.net/comics/mused/a-day-at-the-park

[DancingCarrot]

Thank you all for being so welcoming. At this point, I only tell a couple of people about my viewpoints so it’s wonderful to have the release provided by this forum. I think that’s part of the problem: not feeling like there will be any support. I’ll definitely look into the resources you guys have mentioned. Thanks!

[DancingCarrot]

It’s very encouraging that they’re having them think of their own responsibilities. I remember being in YW and hating that we only learned the “nice” things: how to make centerpieces for our future homes, how to sew (which I actually wish I would’ve paid attention to because it would help now!), learning to lead music, modesty, practicing songs for those awards nights. Blech. Not a place for me. I always wanted to go to Lake Powell and camping with the Priests because those are the activities I enjoyed more. I think that if the church is trying to raise the future generations to think more for themselves, we just might get there some day.

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