[DancingCarrot]

I think DJ and Roy bring up excellent points about the role and responsibilities of a prophet. Also in the vein of the difficulty of quantifying the frequency or number of prophecies a prophet must expound, what happens when something used to be considered revealing doctrine, but the present-day church disavows it? For me, it’s much easier to start from the premise that they’re men, human, and in a difficult position. If they happen to say or do things that resonate with me, then in those moment *I* believe they were being prophetic, revelatory, etc. If they happen to say or do things that don’t resonate with me, I try my best to focus on other things.

I view my membership in the church much like I view my citizenship: I don’t agree with a lot of things the government bodies do, policies that politicians enact, even the activities of political parties I tend to align with disappoint me frequently. However, I don’t want to become a citizen of another country. At least not yet My main decision is to remain a US citizen, all other problems get worked out from that point of view. Similarly, my main religious decision is to remain LDS. All other problems get worked out from that point of view, and if others don’t agree with my process of making that decision fit, then that’s their issue, not mine. All decisions regarding friends, dating in AND out of the church, spouse, etc get worked out from that thought process so if someone can’t handle it, regardless of their religious affiliation, I don’t keep them very close. At the end of the day, I am the only constant in my life so I figure I better make the most of it, which includes taking responsibility for how I see, interpret, and live my life.

I think knowing what concerns you have is important, so I support you figuring out what bothers you and why. However, they’re also *your* concerns, and much of what the organizational church says and does is out of your and our control. It’s awful feeling disappointed, foolish, humiliated, lost, confused – all things that come with a faith or commitment crisis. Asking the church, its leaders, and the culture to change to make you feel better is not a wise road, in my opinion. It’s difficult, but focusing on what we can individually control and contribute is a much more fruitful path. I wish you well on navigating your way through this.

[DancingCarrot]

I’m still confused as to how her faith was strengthened….that she learned that even leaders struggle? That she learned that leaders don’t always have answers, at least not ones that they’ll share? That she’s not “bad” for being confused? I agree with Roy and dande – that she’s endorsing a simplistic, pass or fail type testimony, and that there’s a lot of cognitive dissonance going on. It’s not that I blame her for that; I just don’t think it’s that interesting or new. I also think that her thoughts on homosexuality are, at best ignorant (despite her foray into a “lesbian lifestyle” – if you’re a lesbian any lifestyle you live is a lesbian lifestyle, I think she used the term to describe living and socializing within the gay community) and at worst dismissive and harmful.

I also must agree with Sneelock. Just because you learn something that distresses you, it doesn’t mean that the information is wrong. Conversely, just because you feel something good when hearing about something, it doesn’t mean that the information is right. This article feels like lip service to me.

[DancingCarrot]

AmyJ, thanks for sharing your conclusions. I fall on the side of not believing in the God of Lost Keys, mainly because I’ve actually tried to find lost things through prayer and it has never worked. I hear stories, like yours, of people finding the items or finding peace and then the items, so I try to keep a space open in my mind for them, but it still doesn’t resonate for me. However, I think it’s great that we all are able to find what helps and comforts us. It sounds like that happened to both you and your husband in a stressful situation.

dande48 wrote:

“What does God have to do with it?” responded his fellow.

This made me laugh, and then think. I’ll be mulling over this for a while. Thanks, dande.

[DancingCarrot]

I’ve done what Roy mentions moreso at church lately, at least previously than I used to. I once gave a lesson that included the tenant that the church organization can be many things at different times in our lives, and that that’s how life works. Letting church be a socializing place, or a place where community is fostered, as opposed to the place where I feel the most peace or spirituality, has given me a lot of freedom and ease in interactions at church. We all need relationships in life.

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[DancingCarrot]

I appreciate both DJ’s and Curt’s statements; given me a new perspective to consider and enjoy.

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[DancingCarrot]

^ Definitely my experience, too.

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[DancingCarrot]

Daily dose of humble pie, courtesy of Brother Bushman.

Reminds me of an episode of Call the Midwife where the main character is despairing to a Parrish father over the living conditions of her impoverished patients. She tried to explain that she knows about poverty because of where she works. The Father explains that he doesn’t think she actually does know about it; being impoverished means you’ve never known love, to say nothing of respect. To not know the difference between manipulation and love is something most of us don’t experience. It stopped me in my tracks, er Netflix binge.

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[DancingCarrot]

^ Is essentially how every group or community of people comes to behave eventually, because human nature. Even scientists disagree about things, as well as struggle to accept new evidence. It’s a human thing, and a human brain thing, to reinforce your belief system because it’s too much energy to expend to challenge it every minute of every day.

As much as I sometimes want or crave it, church is a place to find meaning to go on when all else seems meaningless. I try my best to not ask others to do things they aren’t capable of, and that includes the organization of the church.

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[DancingCarrot]

Yeah, I guess another good thing is a good thing.

I was just so surprised and happy to see those things applied in an non-traditional way. It was non-traditional to me, anyway.

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[DancingCarrot]

It sounds like you’re exhausted and burned out. Being that way sucks, there’s no way around it. There’s something to be said about having people near you know your struggles and accept you regardless. This community is great at acceptance and discussion, but there’s no substitute for in-person, I’ve found. Unfortunately, only my former member friend was really able to understand where I was coming from. Talking to my parents or siblings was a dead end, or sometimes worse.

It’s difficult to go through this phase, but take heart. This too shall pass. It might pass like a kidney stone, but it’ll pass.

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[DancingCarrot]

Feeling like an imposter is really draining. When I’ve felt that way, I am exhausted from not only acting how I think others expect me to act, but also from the process of processing what I do and don’t agree with at church. It’s a lot of mental energy, and most often it doesn’t feel like there’s anything to gain at the end of it. It’s a despairing situation, in my experience.

My journey included not going to church for ~3 years. I definitely don’t think this is a path for everyone, especially since the goal of this website is to stayLDS, but that’s what happened for me. It got to a point where I couldn’t go to church without becoming confused, hurt, and angry in addition to feeling like I couldn’t confide in anyone, so when I moved from my YSA ward I didn’t attend the next few wards I moved into. Surprisingly, I was left alone by all of them, with the exception of 2-4 texts from the ward I moved from. I think what I really needed was space and other uplifting venues, but I didn’t know how to do that outside of church because of my upbringing.

These days I take church with less of a tighter grip, but it’s only been after time, space, and different experience. Plus, I still have difficulty deciphering between needing space from church and just not wanting to go :shh: :angel:

Any actual advice? You won’t know what you need until you try some of your options, and not just for a few weeks. Analysis paralysis is nearly as bad as feeling trapped by your current situation, but acting on a decision will give you more information on how to keep moving forward.

[DancingCarrot]

Love, love, love it.

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[DancingCarrot]

I think a mash-up of both nibbler’s and dande’s explanations is a good one.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there were any ancient thoughts on the healing properties of olive oil either.

[DancingCarrot]

Wonderful link and highlighting of a comment. It was a new perspective that added some much appreciated depth.

[DancingCarrot]

To the OP, I don’t think there’s as a big of a bridge between the author’s experience and the LDS woman’s experience, and the largest possibility could be because women aren’t in the ministry in the LDS church as much as they are in other churches. I think the Child ghost is quite common, however. I also think the Temptress is experienced in our church, but somewhat less so. Garments make fashion choices limited for women, and garment-wearers make up most of the adult, active women. Therefore some of the chatter around women’s bodies dies down a little bit. But heaven help the woman who doesn’t abide by the fashion expectations of garment lines.

As to the phenomenon where women are more hostile towards each other than men are to women, I think it’s most likely a result of being invalidated and patronized by men in leadership positions, especially at church. It’s a defense mechanism called displacement: you’re being ignored or patronized, however you have no recourse for effective action, therefore you take it out on those around you. The most classic example out there is the man who gets mistreated by his boss and deals with it by mistreating his family. It happens in a lot of situations, however, it’s not an excuse to dismiss the cause of feminism.

I think that if you’re unable to listen to someone talk about their issues without bringing up your issues and to demand that your issues be given equal weight before you validate their position, then you’re being incredibly tone deaf and defensive. Rights, human decency, fairness, equality – these things aren’t pieces of a pie that decrease your share if someone else receives them, too. A rising tide lifts all boats.

I had a manager consistently bemoan the fact that workplace sexual harassment policies have made it impossible for him to compliment a woman co-worker’s appearance without fear of lawsuit. I think that if that’s the biggest sacrifice for him, as a man, to have to make to help ensure that women aren’t harassed in the workplace then so be it. Also, if that’s a sacrifice, then that’s a pretty good life, my friend! 😆 Additionally, I would cite the growing financial need for women to be earning incomes for their families as a facet of the economy, not simply a result of feminists.

If some women don’t want to be in leadership positions, that’s fine. But stay out of the way of women who do. If some women don’t want to stay at home raising children or even after they leave the home, that’s fine. But stay out of the way of women who do. If some men think they know better what God wants for me, that’s fine. But stay out of my way.

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