[DancingCarrot]

I’ve occasionally seen a blog post circulated through my LDS friends through the years, a blog post about how the author wishes to see “struggling people” in the pews. He describes them as reeking of smoke or obviously drunk, and how terribly we need these “kinds” of people. Often I think we need to become more comfortable with the terribly and wonderfully human parts of ourselves so that it’s not so painful or difficult to recognize that same humanity in others.

Curt, your blog post is fantastic. It resonated with me.

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[DancingCarrot]

I got to teach in RS again! It ended up being great for the class and for me, since I am working/out of town for the next two Sundays. I really enjoy teaching so I was bummed I would miss a month. At first I was nervous taking on the topic of “The Latter-Day Miracle of Missionary Work”, but it turned out really well.

I began with describing my small level of ambivalence towards traditional missionary work: my dad joined the church at age 19 but didn’t serve a mission, my brother stopped attending church regularly somewhere in junior high-high school, the church has always been “central” in our family but we’ve also missed a lot of “milestones”. So that set the stage well for introducing some differing perspectives.

I explained the idea between the church as an organization and the gospel as a set of principles/doctrines, and I even used Curt’s tag line of the core principles of the gospel being love, belief in the unseen but hoped, self-reflective change, symbolic cleansing, power in divinity, never giving up. That these are principles that most people believe in, despite their religious affiliation. There was a lot of discussion about meeting other people where they are, whether that be needing the organization of the church, the social structure of the church, or the doctrines/meaning of the church, and how in order to legitimately help people we need to understand them on some level, otherwise we’re just talking about our religion because it makes us feel good.

I moved onto the 11th AoF and asked how are we to reconcile letting ourselves and others worship according to the dictates of our consciences while attempting to fulfill missionary work. This sparked a great discussion about talking about religion at work because one woman found her co-workers to be very walled off from organized religion, but that she hoped someone would feel comfortable coming to her during a difficult time because they’ve seen her example of peace and endurance. That prompted me to share my opposite experience at my workplace, where the phrase “melting pot” is an understatement. There was a particular lunch break that some colleagues were talking about traditional/cultural foods and how meaningful it was to them that despite their cultural backgrounds from slavery, that their ancestors were able to endure and create delicious meals to share with their families that brought joy and comfort despite their terrible conditions. I also mentioned that despite me being the only white person on the unit, that they included me in the conversation and explained their thoughts with great emphasis and care. I told them that that moment felt like heaven.

There was also conversation about how our needs and relationship to both the church and gospel fluctuate over time. How sometimes we need more structure and social/community life instead of spirituality from church. And how other times we desperately need the meaning that comes from spirituality instead of programs and friends. It was emphasized from many women that sometimes we take and sometimes we give; that coming to church helps in different ways both for us and others, and that it’s important to come because sometimes we don’t attend church for ourselves. I also related a story about a pending heart transplant patient that I worked with last year and the guilt he felt for needing and “taking” another person’s heart. I tried to comfort him and also iterate that for the family of the deceased who is able to give the gift of a heart, it helps them with closure and their grieving to know that their loved one helped someone else. We all give, and we all take.

We discussed a little bit about “holy envy” and how other churches have many practices or focuses of doctrine that we love. The Passover was mentioned specifically, and one of the women explained “Well, if you love Passover so much why don’t you celebrate it?!” We also, later via text, tentatively planned to have a RS activity for Passover at a Jewish synagogue, if enough women are interested.

I closed by saying that despite anyone’s church membership status in this life, there are always opportunities afforded to everyone in the Plan of Salvation. That we needn’t fear as to anyone’s membership because there are so many opportunities for them to join (if that’s really how it works out), and that we can be missionaries unto ourselves, ensuring that we get our needs met through church and other means and to connect with others around our similarities.

It was an excellent lesson, and I’m happy to have had the opportunity.

[DancingCarrot]

I recently came across and love this Instagram post by Glennon Doyle, an unconventional Christian to some, and here’s what she had to say on Sabbaths and how to keep them holy, emphasis mine:

Quote:

It’s Sunday. My favorite day.

All week we create and work and build and then Sunday comes. We stop creating, take a deep breath, step back from all we’ve built and take a good look at it all. Our families, homes, relationships, work —and even though none of it’s perfect & none of it’s done – We look at it and CALL IT GOOD. Good enough. Beautiful even.

Sometimes we go to church on Sunday. We love our church. Some seasons, we find ourselves LOOKING for church in the world and BEING church in the world instead of going to church. We don’t keep any rules about church in our family. God is everywhere and church is wherever people are working together for love.

Friday night we found church at a Chance the Rapper concert. My favorite was @lecrae. This guy got on stage and talked to those 12,000 kids about resilience, dropped wisdom and made hope COOL.

Rap Concert church is a real thing. Man, we miss the opportunity to learn from some serious ministers when we only look for them on altars.

[DancingCarrot]

LDS_Scoutmaster wrote:

My wife and i were talking this morning as she gave a lesson recently sharing her opinion that we can’t achieve perfection in this life, but the fact that we continue to work towards it is the key. One of the sisters retorted that we can obtain it. We both agreed that pushing the perfection model can and is damaging to a lot of people, especially when we realize that we don’t measure up in some area of our life.

I actually just looked the suffix -tion, and it was just as I expected:

Quote:

the action of a verb; the result of a verb

Taken in this grammatical context, and if we take the definition of perfect as being whole and complete (as opposed to without flaw) then striving towards perfection is a state of being where we are acting out our wholesomeness, our completeness – as we understand it at any given time. Granted, I understand this isn’t how it’s taught in our society and it’s certainly not a hill I’m willing to even climb, let alone try to die on, but I like the perspective shift.

[DancingCarrot]

I’ve never made the link from polygamy to women’s suffrage, but it seems to be a pretty strong one. I guess leaving women alone without the supervision of a man and responsibilities to be managed actually leads somewhere productive! 😮

http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapters/statehood_and_the_progressive_era/womenssuffrageinutah.html” class=”bbcode_url”>http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapters/statehood_and_the_progressive_era/womenssuffrageinutah.html

What I love is that while many people were willing to grant women the vote, everyone was also hoping that women would just help further their own causes. Also, it seems like the church voicing political support that eventually wins at the polls is a centuries’ long tradition. Sometimes it’s nice to see things not change.

I also think it’s great that Utah was one of the first states to grant women’s suffrage, as well as allow them to hold office. I love that the RS was a tour de force in helping women organize in their communities around the state, and that they were active in causes they believed in, formally church-related or not.

[DancingCarrot]

Beefster wrote:

On the other hand, you could say that polygyny actually benefits women in that they don’t have to worry whether a man is taken because men can marry multiple women, leaving them with far more “buyers” in the “sexual marketplace” and allowing them to be more selective.

This belief might carry weight, if only virtually every polygamous culture hasn’t demoted women to some secondary status. Women don’t go out “shopping” for which polygamous husband’s family to “buy into”. Women were/are expected to accept whichever man’s proposal she receives, not only because is her opinion secondary, but often because her personal educational and economic opportunities are limited as well. Polygamy has never been a buyer’s market for women. Frankly, until quite recently in human history, MARRIAGE has never been a buyer’s market for women.

Beefster wrote:

The only way around these dynamics is with matchmaking and arranged marriages, which nobody likes. (BTW: many of the plural marriages in the church were by assignment, effectively making them arranged marriages).

Actually, there’s plenty of evidence out there that suggests arranged marriages are the happiest and have the lowest rates of divorce. Besides the cultural values that don’t see divorce as an acceptable practice, people have already bought into the practice of having their marriage arranged so when it comes time for it to happen for them there isn’t any angst associated with it. Interestingly, it’s the fact that us in the West have such huge amounts of choice from which to select, and therefore also know at what we’re “missing”, is what drives our unhappy marriages and higher divorce rates.

Beefster wrote:

There are distinct differences in biology and psychology that would drive these dynamics. Polyandry would have vastly different dynamics and polyamory is a different beast entirely.

Monogamy is a nice, clean, egalitarian, balanced practice that benefits men and women about equally, especially in modern times when wives are no longer seen as property.

Yes, because people usually enter into polyandry expecting open communication and consent from all people involved. If someone isn’t okay with an arrangement, from what I understand, that’s often allowed to be something to talk about and potentially not go through with – which isn’t how polygamy works at all. Also, just because I haven’t been a big enough pain already, monogamy and marriage tends to benefit men more – my guess is because of how masculinity is traditionally expected of men. Married men live longer and have better relationships than single men, overall. Married women often lose more sleep and have far bigger family and career stressors than do single women.

Beefster wrote:

The problem comes from when it was abused

Frankly, as a women and potential “other umpteenth of a polygamous relationship”, I can’t think of a time when polygamy HASN’T been abusive. To women. There is nothing redemptive or exalting in the principle or practice of it, in my opinion.

[DancingCarrot]

Today I gave a lesson in RS based off of President Uchtdorf’s April 2017 GC talk, “Perfect Love Casteth Out Fear.”

I started off the lesson by discussing how fear is often used as a motivator, even in subtle ways. With increasingly more of our lives being moved onto social media, we come across advertisements that seem just like our friends’ posts, but that they’re trying to move product. I also iterated, from one of my favorite authors Mark Manson, that continually chasing positive experiences is itself a negative experience because chasing the positive often simply reinforces the fact that we don’t already have it.

Next I moved on to FOMO – fear of missing out. I detailed another story from the above author about how, for years, he felt compelled to impulsively travel to a lot of places that he saw on Instagram that looked cool. Despite the fact that a lot of the places he went to were let downs, it fueled him even more, convincing him that he just wasn’t looking at the right pictures or the right beaches or the right hotel yada yada yada. I mentioned that the most defining factor in determining if we’re living according to FOMO is if we’re more afraid of what we might potentially lose if we miss out on owning something or having an experience (a loss that’s purely imagined because we don’t have the thing in the first place), instead of being motivated by what we could gain from the experience.

I also linked being motivated by fear with perfectionism, and how the faulty belief system of perfectionism stymies any real progress. The RS president remarked that she noticed, in her own life, that perfectionism often stops you from beginning because you think that accomplishing anything that isn’t perfect is a waste of time. I touched on Brene Brown’s definition of perfectionism which links the fear of being rejected to the pursuit of appearing perfectly.

We closed the lesson with the notion that choosing to be continually motivated by fear causes us to pretend that we’re already perfect people, and how it frustrates any need for an Atonement. That the need for an atonement wasn’t some haphazard backup plan that we can use if we think mean things about people, but that a need for it was recognized from the beginning and was built into the system (regardless of literal vs figurative).

It was a great lesson.

[DancingCarrot]

Beefster, Brene Brown is a social worker and PhD-level social researcher who has done a lot of work around shame, vulnerability, and worthiness. I’d suggest picking up her books for more info, especially The Gifts of Imperfection. Her books have a lot of good info and are fairly quick reads.

[DancingCarrot]

Roy wrote:

Elder Wirthlin says to avoid earthly debt. It is a form of bondage. If you do get into debt be honorable in paying it off that you may be honest and independent of any claims against you.

I would agree and disagree. In some scenarios, bondage is an aggressive term, especially when debt taken on is done so in a responsible manner. However, there are many ways to be bonded in debt, and there are many people who find it morally acceptable to assist in putting people in those positions.

Roy wrote:

However, there is also heavenly debt. Elder Wirthlin includes in this category our parents that gave us life and a home, a childhood and upbringing. He also includes the sacrifices of our ancestors and those that have gone before – delivering a heritage and a legacy. I believe this principle also extends towards all those that have contributed to build the privileges that we so enjoy (and often take for granted). This would be inventors and scientists, statesman and civil rights activists, pastors, painters, poets, and so many many more.

This second category of debt cannot be repaid, but it can be remembered, honored, and respected with a life of humble gratitude and appreciation.

None of us are “self-made” men and women in this regard. All of us have heavenly debts that can be honored but never repaid.

Love this part, especially the focus on honoring the “payments” of others, the benefits of which we sow. What a wonderful topic to bring up the week of Thanksgiving. Thanks, AmyJ and Roy!

[DancingCarrot]

Beefster wrote:

. It’s going to drive me insane to try to keep the act up for too long, so that’s not a permanent solution. I’m going to have to learn how to be genuine about it without drawing attention from the pharisees… or something like that. I really don’t care if I’m unpopular as long as some people care about me and people aren’t constantly trying to fix me.

Everyone dislikes having to pretend to be someone they’re not, especially in places and around people they frequent regularly. My answer: stop acting. You’re not doing yourself or anyone else any favors by pretending to be someone you aren’t.

With that said, it also does sound like you’re still somewhat antagonistic or defensive towards people you perceive to be “Pharisees”, or perhaps “too” orthodox. It’s completely normal and good to want to be around people who support and value you, who you can reciprocate the relationship. However, if you’re only identifying people as Pharisees as those who don’t believe precisely as you do, then I’m not sure who’s left to befriend.

There are lots of different people all over the place. Making acquaintances usually doesn’t take too long. Making deep friendships depends on a lot of variables outside of your control, and takes a long time.

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[DancingCarrot]

DA, I think we may have different demographics when we both refer to “most” of the LDS women we know. Also, I I think generational differences play a part. I’m in a YSA ward still, and I see both ends of the spectrum, but women who realize that we are all sexual beings are not rare in my experience. During my RS lesson on the LoC, a lot of women openly discussed things and one of the best comments was “Not all porn is created equal.” That comment wasn’t disruptive and a lot of the women nodded their heads in agreement. It was a great discussion.

So certainly, I know and have heard of women like you describe and won’t try to discount their influence and beliefs. But I also wanted to provide my perspective and experience, which stands in contrast with yours.

Also, I think I would add that not all porn consumption is created equal. IMO, there are differences in using porn infrequently to using is consistently and regularly; as well as differences between the reasons WHY someone uses porn (and to me, “because I’m that horny” is an immature and non-self-aware answer — I have desires to express my need for hunger in certain ways, that doesn’t mean I frequently indulge and certainly not at the cost of negatively affecting myself and those closest to me).

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[DancingCarrot]

I have a friend who deeply believes that her and her mom were meant to be a mother-daughter pair. Her very improbable birth, undeterred by multiple birth control methods, seems to uphold that belief. However, I’ve never felt “destined” for my family. What defines my family’s relationships is a combination of chance and effort, in my eyes. I think my mom disagrees, and deeply believes in an interesting combination of foreordination/pre-destination and choice. To each their own, I guess.

Roy, thanks for posting that excerpt. I definitely don’t believe in it, but it’s fascinating to see where leaders of the church land on different issues. It helps me gain more confidence in discovering the beliefs that work for me.

Old Timer wrote:

The idea that everyone chooses their trials too often is used to salve our collective conscience when we don’t do enough to stop the pain and suffering in the world.

It is one of the best examples of a privileged worldview there is, since most people who create those views are in relatively good situations at the time. (“I deserve / earned this?”) It also leads to judgmentalism, since it is easy to believe “they deserved their difficulties” as a punishment for their previous lives.

I absolutely agree.

[DancingCarrot]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

Basically it looks like many LDS women just don’t want to believe that their own husband, father, brothers, sons, etc. are viewing porn/nudity on a regular basis. And it looks like many moral crusaders like to think that talking about how bad and bad for you that porn supposedly is will make a significant difference in stopping people from viewing it rather than largely being a case of preaching to the choir and spinning their wheels in a losing battle against human nature.

……

However, it is definitely risky to test the waters especially in the Church. For example, suppose you are dating someone and you tell them, “I try to avoid porn but haven’t been able to stop watching it completely and I can’t promise that I’ll never look at it again.” What do you think is likely to happen in that case?

This is definitely not true for me, and for other LDS women that I know. Personally, with every new guy I date (LDS or not) I know that porn is going to be a discussion point if we date for long enough. When we get to a certain point in dating, not if he happens to look at porn. I know that virtually all men look at or have looked at porn. How long we date is the determining factor for this discussion, not religion or anything else. Also, the man I dated who was affected the most by porn wasn’t LDS or religious. It affected his self-esteem, his desire and capability for consistent intimacy, and his ability to work through sexual difficulties between us. In my experience, porn has nothing to do with religion, but religions can make the issue more complicated than it needs to be.

Roy wrote:

mom3 wrote:

Yes – we could stand to step back on many of our “moral issues” including every naked body, shoulder exposed, bare midriff woman being a harlot or porn provider.

I think that there is certainly a spectrum. I think it would be perfectly normal and even healthy and expected for a young unmarried man to gaze at the underwear catalogue for an extended moment.

However, I believe that this same young man could very well be harmed by copious amounts of hardcore material.

With my own children, I wish to provide acceptance for the former while protecting them from (not shaming them from) the latter. Not demonizing natural urges and bodily functions but not debasing ourselves to them either.

Old Timer wrote:

Objectively, there are terrible aspects of the porn industry and terrible consequences of extensive porn use for many individuals. Objectively, there also are many people who can view porn occasionally or regularly and never become addicted or face severe consequences. It is just like alcohol in that regard.

An interesting thing to consider is Paul’s statement about not eating meat with those who abstain from meat – and the implications about self-control and true strength. I believe true strength is NOT found in one’s limits (in this case, how much porn someone can view without becoming addicted or causing harm) but rather in one’s ability to abstain due to respect for others of importance to them, if not abstaining would hurt those others. I believe if someone drinks or views porn while in a relationship with someone who would be hurt by knowing about it (individually or as a group), and if that person claims they are doing it because they are strong enough to handle it, that person is delusional about their strength. There is nothing strong about indulging in and hiding something that would harm others, if known.

I am NOT saying all people who view porn are weak. I’m just saying viewing porn and hiding it while in a relationship that would be damaged if it was known is not a sign of strength.

I agree with Roy, mom, and Curt.

[DancingCarrot]

Ok, I understand what you’re saying. The books I mentioned above generally say the same thing, albeit with 100s more pages and lots of vocabulary look up.

Anyway, the historical results give more credence to the notion of letting people worship according to the dictates of their conscience.

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[DancingCarrot]

Curt,

Do you mean that the discord, war, and destruction are the result of assimilation? Or have they also been an impetus for assimilation? Or some mixture?

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