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I would actually look forward to coming! I very much wish the Church was more focused on practical matters, application, and took the time to think a bit more on how the lessons effect the Church membership.

Today we had a lesson on the Pride Cycle in gospel doctrine. It’s the first lesson I’ve ever chosen to walk out on. It infers that those who are rich, whose life is filled with temporal blessings, are the most righteous. It causes us to look down on the poor and needy, and see their struggles as self deserving. And it discourages the poor and the needy. An example of this comes from my wife. We have struggled with infertility in the several years since marriage, and there are so many times when my wife will break down and cry and tell me, “I am such a terrible person. I am a terrible wife. Do you think God is punishing me? Is that why I can’t have children?” Now, this is from the MOST angelic woman I have ever known. She is fully active in the Church, magnifies her calling; she is the most caring, selfless, charitable person I know. And this gospel principle has brought her a lot of heartache.

In fact, I don’t believe the pride cycle is actually a princple taught in the Book of Mormon. A lot of good people in their stories suffered, struggled, and died. I think it is more of a rich man’s interpretation; taking out small sections to justify their wealth and blessings as merited. I would rather have a lesson on compassion or charity. I know I should’ve had more charity today.

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I always took it to mean

1. The Godhead; Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. 3 Gods, but one in purpose.

Also

2. Men who have likewise become “one” with God. The principle of exaltation; man can become like God, much in the same way as Christ is like God. Whatever Joseph Smith said (and not of himself) it was the word of God.

The plan of the Church leaders and of Joseph Smith was also Gods plan. Because they were “one” with him, the same as Christ was “one” with the Father.

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This reminds me of the old Nursery Rhyme, written by Tom Brown, about his Bishop, Dr. Fell:

I do not love thee, Dr Fell,

The reason why I cannot tell;

But this I know, and know full well,

I do not love thee, Dr Fell. 🙄

My only suggestion for learning to love your Bishop is first, get on your knees and pray that you like him. When you talk with your wife, family, and others, say good things about him (even if you don’t mean it). Act like you love him, and soon enough you really will.

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“… And whosoever murdereth against the light and knowledge of God, it is not easy for him to obtain forgiveness; yea, I say unto you, my son, that it is not easy for him to obtain a forgiveness.” Alma 39:6

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It’s one of those “Deep” topics, where the early leaders of Church brought up some pretty weird topics. One of the earliest justifications for polygammy was, in fact, that God is a polygamist. So according to “doctrine” (if you’d call it that), there are multiple heavenly mothers, who have given “birth” to the spirits of mankind. Not very feminist if you ask me. Beyond that, the leaders of the Church have remained silent; any discussion beyond would be philisophical, and without much doctrinal basis, if any at all.

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One of the truths I have had to realize is that just because something isn’t true, doesn’t mean it isn’t good, or that there isn’t value in beliving in it. I am in the same boat; I no longer have a testimony of Brigham Young, a lot of things in Church history don’t set right with me, and I don’t have confidence in the divine calling of Church leaders. What makes things “interesting” for me, is the realization that the Church has brought be a lot of good, and could still bring me a lot of good, if only I could believe in it still.

Your wife and your children will still be blessed by their attendance and activity in the Church. It is a wonderful, and powerful force for good. It is a false doctrine that teaches “whatsoever is true is good” and “whatsoever is good is true”. To quote “Second-Hand Lions”:

“Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love… true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in.”

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This was regular in my home stake almost 8 years ago.

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I really hope that ALL churches, as well as our own government, develop a policy of ABSOLUTE transparancy in all financial dealings. For the first time in history, we have the technology. I think it would lead to much wiser speding and allocation of resources.

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FaithfulSkeptic wrote:

1. Why would God give two opposing commandments to Adam and Eve? (To multiply and replentish the Earth and to not partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil)

2. Why are these opposing commandments? (Why couldn’t Adam & Eve replentish the earth without partaking of the fruit? Did they need to become mortal in order to have children?)

Here is my theory: The commandments to abstain from the fruit of TKOGAE, and to multiply and replenish the earth, were not opposing. God would never issue a commandment which could not be fulfilled. “I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.” (1 Ne 3:7).

IF Adam and Eve had not partaken of the fruit, God would’ve prepared a way for them to be able to keep the second commandment, to multiply and replenish the earth. If it weren’t so, Adam and Even would’ve “transgressed”one commandment by “not transgressing” the other commandment. But because Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, we will never know what might’ve been. Adam and Eve’s rationalization, that there was “no other way”, was born out of ignorance, not wisdom.

Quote:

3. Why would Satan help fulfill God’s plan by getting Eve to partake of the fruit? Wouldn’t the whole plan be frustrated if Adam & Eve didn’t partake of the fruit?

Satan’s plan, as I understand it, would be to have every man follow after the desires of their own heart, instead of submitting to God’s will. By getting Adam & Eve to partake of the fruit, he was able to cut them off from Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. If they had remained in the garden, Satan could not harm them.

Quote:

4. Why was cherubim and a flaming sword placed to guard the tree of life after Adam and Eve partook of the fruit?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/12.21-24?lang=eng#white

Quote:

5. How much, if any of the story of Adam and Eve is to be understood as historical?

I would think most of it. Many sections of the story of Adam and Eve would not make sense in a linear timeline. Satan probably did not send college-educated false popes and preists to teach Adam and Eve. Peter, James, and John would not have been able to touch Adam or Eve without a physical body, nor would they have been able to give the signs and tokens without having first recieved them. Satan did not address members of the temple audiance right before being cast out by the real Peter in front of the real Adam and Eve. It is a story by allegory, to convey gospel truths.

There is great evidence that human kind were created in a similar manner as the rest of God’s creatures; though hundreds of millions of years of genetic mutation and natural selection. I would likely guess that the bodies of Adam and Eve had biological parents, much like we do. For most of their childhood, Adam and Eve lived in relative peace, without knowledge of the predators and savagry of the outside world. Then, by a choice they made in ignorance, they discovered that there is pain, sickness, misery, and death in the world. They learned that their natural instincts are not always benificial for peace and prosperity (i.e. eating of the wrong “fruit” can make you very sick). They learned that sometimes they must sacrifice, whether time or the best of their harvest, in order to get something better. They saw the goodness of God, and loved it. They saw the misery of the world, and dispised it. They established between themselves basic principles of morality, in line with what they were taught by the goodness of God. They realized that most importantly, they needed to place bounds on their sexuality in favor of the peace and harmony of the community. And lastly, they realized the truth of concecration; giving all of yourself for the benifit of the community.

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I’d say, just show up to church! There is often be a new face or two in every sacrament meeting; I doubt you’ll be treated any different than if you had just moved into the ward.

As for the sacrament, it is a very personal decision. What does it mean to you? For me, it means aknowledging my mistakes and weaknesses, and my hope to become one with Christ. It’s a prayer for the atonement to enter into my life; to change me and make me a better person. The only reason I wouldn’t take it, is if there was something in my life, some sin, I wasn’t willing to lay on the alter for Christ. But in the end, it is all up to you.

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I believe that polygammy, like communism, could have been a wonderful thing IF ONLY mankind could’ve been trusted not to mess it up. It would be practical in certain societies for a woman to be able to join another family, as a spouse, under certain circumstances. Societies’ views on marriage have changed drastically since the time of Christ, and not always for the better. I could imagine God revitalizing the practice of polygammy, while still being a just and loving God.

But humans are lustful, greedy, jealous and selfish. They will often lie to get what they want. I mean, I personally know of a couple of examples of when a man or woman has committed adultry because “I prayed about it, and felt it was right. God told me to.” I’m not saying Joseph Smith was right, and I am certainly not a fan of Brigham Young. But no matter how good something is, mankind will always find a way to pervert it.

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Yeah, that is one of those sections I believe should NOT be in the Book of Mormon. My wife literally skips that part whenever we reach it during family scripture study. That scripture is shocking, and folks like attention. They believe if they have your attention, then they are good teachers. But it is not effective in teaching chastity.

What would be a good BOM story, but one I rarely see used, is of Corianton. He slept with a prostitute, and broke the law of chastity (which is most abominable above all else). What’s more, is because of his example, others wouldn’t listen to the gospel. Corianton felt sorry, repented, and became one of the most effective missionaries, bringing “continual peace… and exceedingly great prosperity in the church.”

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Golly, I REALLY wish taxes were like this! I would take it up with your Bishop, but technically I’d say no; at least not to be considered a full-tithe payer during tithing settlement.

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I wish that many more of us would be as willing to be open about our own struggles and weaknesses. I am grateful for the few members I have known, who even though they identify as homosexual, are active in the Church, and try their very best to adhere to church standards. Many of them can’t marry; or if they do, it is filled with its own unique challenges.

I would recommend against coming out over the pulpit. If you do, I’d be very careful in the way you present it. What you intend, and how it is interpreted can be VERY different. It could likely be interpreted as:

-A cry for attention

-Asking for tolerance for your own sins

-Justification

Keep in mind, I don’t believe any of that is true in the slightest. But you’ll be fighting these two psychological principles:

-Confirmation Bias: The tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one’s existing beliefs.

-Cognitive Dissonance: The discomfort of having two incompatible beliefs; usually resolved by reinterpreting facts so that both beliefs may be maintained.

God has blessed you with Bisexuality, and so you must use it as EFFECTIVELY as possible, to accomplish the most good. If members start shutting you out, you can’t bless them. Here is what I’d recommend:

1. Start with someone else’s story. Quote other people. Focus on those who remained faithful, despite their “thorn in the flesh”. Maybe use Paul’s story from 2 Cor 12:7-10. Baring your own testimony is only a single witness. Baring someone else’s is two. (Notice how often apostles quote others)

2. Take the focus away from yourself. If you mention your bisexuality, segway it into how it has helped you to have greater empathy and compassion on others with their own struggles. Focus on others.

3. Don’t lecture, condemn, or bring down anyone else, no matter what. Show gratitude to your family for their support. Publically acknowledge how much love you’ve been shown from the friends you’ve come out to. Even if it isn’t true, pretend as if they have already responded and acted in the best possible way. People will conform to how you think of them.

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Willhewonder wrote:

What does God think about all this? Was polygamy ever instituted by Him? Personally, I think it may have been. I don’t know for sure. Was it implemented according to His wishes? I believe not.

I fully believe, that God could’ve instituted polygammy, and that when practiced right the whole thing could’ve been an uplifting affair. It’s only been in the past couple centuries that folks began to marry solely out of mutual feelings of romantic love, and not because of socio-economic considerations.

BUT it was insituted in a way that was very cruel to women, and to most men. I still can’t quite figure out Joseph Smith, with a lot of his personal history being clouded, but I am NOT a fan of Brigham Young. I wish the Church would publish a factual essay on him. There is no reason why I single man, at the head of the church, should become the wealthiest in the west (because of his calling), and take on 50+ wives. Plus, a great deal of what he said, including over the pulpit at General Conference, is explicitly contradictory of our modern teachings.

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