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Chamelea wrote:
Thank you all for your responses and also simply just for being here on this forum.Roy wrote:
1) Please do whatever you can to preserve your mental health. I don’t know what that looks like for you. Maybe talking to a counselor, maybe taking a break from the church meetings that make you feel that way, maybe just be scheduling extra “me” time doing what soothes and relaxes you.Thanks so much for your kind concern, Roy. That means a lot. I’m doing my best to try to preserve my mental health—which was already poor, even before all this. I’m on the highest dose of Zoloft and use a SAD therapy lamp in the mornings, but I still have my challenges on that front. I had been seeing a counselor for awhile, but I still didn’t feel like I could fully open up and talk to her, because she wasn’t a member and wouldn’t quite understand all the things I wanted to talk about. I worried she might try to encourage me just to leave the Church and/or my husband. Eventually I stopped meeting with her. At the same time, I don’t know if it would work to talk to a counselor who IS a member, because they might not be aware of the historical issues I struggle with and think it’s just false, anti stuff and not understand where I’m coming from. I think just being able to open up and discuss things here will help be therapeutic for me.
I understand your concerns about therapists. Sometimes non-member therapists are very appropriate and sometimes they’re not. I don’t know where you live and you don’t need to disclose that if you don’t want to. In the Mormon Corridor there are some non-member therapists that do understand the church and the nuances involved with members. In the Corridor there are also member therapists who are familiar with faith crisis and are able to work with people in faith crisis without being judgmental. Of course, finding these therapists is the trick. Good non-member and member therapist exist outside the Corridor as well, but finding them is even trickier – but keep in mind Mormons are not the only ones who have crises of faith.
Just a side note about therapists: If a therapist is advising you to leave the church or divorce your spouse, find another one – that one is inappropriate (unless there are exigent circumstances). Stay away from the Jodi Hidebrandts.
Welcome to the forum! Your story is quite familiar to those of us who have been here a while – we’ve seen many similar stories and experience much of what you experience ourselves. You’ve been given good advice so far. There’s not really much I can add. We each must find our own path that works for us. For me, letting go of the fear and guilt associated with the church or some church teachings was extremely freeing. Not everyone is able to do that. Like Roy, I have also realized that no human has any control over where I end up in the afterlife (if there really is one) or who I end up with. Being very blunt, I think most of it is made up and no one really has any idea. But that works for me, your mileage may vary.
This article first came to my attention in the Salt Lake Tribune. Interestingly, it is not mentioned on either of the church owned news outlets, Deseret News or KSL TV. After signing in to the church website, it is visible on the home page, but I had to scroll down to see it. The point of giving this observation? I’m again not sure how serious the church really is about ending racist attitudes. Like the gospel topics essays, if you have to look for it, it’s less likely to be found. And like the essays, I think the vast majority of member are and will remain unaware. Granted I rarely attend church, but of all the things I do hear people mention about Nelson’s teachings or changes I rarely hear anyone mention his words about ending racism. Even with this statement nigh to GC I’m not expecting to hear it in GC. I agree with your assessment, Nibbler, I do think it’s important to know our leaders are fallible, but also to your point I think it would go a long way for our leaders to admit they are fallible (obscure statements you cited notwithstanding). I do not think this likely under the current regime and even more unlikely under the likely successor. In fact I only see a slight chance of it being likely in the foreseeable future if, and only if, DFU ever occupies the big chair.
This is a great conversation and I have enjoyed reading through everyone’s thoughts. When it comes to any study I always “follow the money” first. Who paid for or supported the study? That usually tells me what the expected outcome is. The second step is if the study was published in a peer reviewed professional journal. In a peer reviewed professional journal even if the study does not meet the expected outcome it could still be published (but likely won’t). This study of course does not meet the smell test (or depending on your point of view it stinks). I don’t read every BYU study that comes around, but any I have read fail the smell test at the first step – they are clearly always biased to cast the church, church members, and/or BYU in the best possible light. And as you have all recognized there are always leaps that don’t really make sense and are not supported by any facts.
I don’t want to derail this into an anti BYU post (and note that my wife and 4 children are all BYU grads) but BYU is headed in a very wrong direction in the academic world and this does not bode well for the institution or the church in general. BYU is fast becoming a laughing stock in the scientific and professional world.
nibbler wrote:
Roy wrote:
Right. That quote from Dr. Dyer seems particularly inappropriate. Most researchers will caution that correlation does not equal causation and that more research needs to be done. To speculate that maybe these people that struggle just don’t understand the church teachings and doctrine seems nakedly apologetic.
This study is of/for everyone, right? Imagine a Catholic reading that.
The people with the most scrupulosity are ex-Mormons and it’s probably because they didn’t understand the LDS doctrines enough.
C’mon.
I think the church (as in high leadership) frequently engage in false causation as related to correlation. An example that immediately comes to mind is elimination of Young Men presidencies and turning all of their duties over to bishops because somehow there seemed to be a correlation between young men being close to their bishops related to them staying active. First of all I doubt that there really was a correlation to begin with, and any study probably didn’t go out far enough (while younger people do have faith crises, based on experience here and in real life those crises often happen much later 30s-50s often after checking all the covenant path boxes). So, relating to the above particular quote, it not only means they don’t understand the doctrine (really?) and they apparently weren’t close enough to their bishops as youth (?). Why then are we still bleeding young people? Why then are we still bleeding older people?
My son (served a mission, married in the temple, currently inactive) recently shared that his wife’s BIL came out to him as not believing the truth claims of the church anymore (due to the CES letter). They live in Happy Valley, covenant path check boxes, several children, hold church callings and TRs, etc. Has a good job, wife is SAHM (she does have a professional degree as well). “Perfect” Mormon family. Does he really not understand the doctrine? No, I think he does understand the doctrine and that precisely is the problem – the doctrine doesn’t add up (as Amy says).
I’m sorry to hear of this loss, and I’m sure your friend feels it deeply. 1. What is more important? Going through the rituals of religious life or being a well-rounded Christian? (following the example of Christ’s life).I think trying to be a well rounded Christian (be nice) is far more important than the “covenant path.” Yes, I think the idea of the covenant path might be an aide to being a better Christian, but that’s partly because of the built-in fear of not doing the covenant path. In other words, I think it’s more important to be good because we want to be, not because we are afraid of what will happen otherwise. “Living prophet” aside, the Bible and Book of Mormon really say nothing about this modern iteration of the covenant path (and the argument can be made either way whether even baptism is necessary).
2. This life is moving so fast. Will we learn everything we need for eternity in this life? Or is there more to come? Life seems to move faster the older I get. The answer to the question is I don’t know. I suppose if there really is eternal progression (and I like to think there is) we likely have more to learn.
Here’s where my universalist point of view comes into play: I think your friend’s wife is in very good position. Their bond of living happily for many years is far more important than any ceremony or ritual.
Minyan Man wrote:
Just a follow up, we received a ward bulletin today, there was no mention of her death.It seems a little cold. Maybe I’m too sensitive.
I have a mixed point of view on this. I agree that there should have been some mention, but also acknowledge it could have been an oversight. I served as a counselor to a bishop who didn’t like to make announcements about deaths of ward family members. His reasoning was that if we miss one, even if no one told us because sometimes bishops are expected to be clairvoyant, the family of the person we missed would be offended. This actually happened, in fact (an inactive member no less). So he generally did not announce any deaths of family members. Active ward members were a different story, though, and even if she wasn’t a member but came (we had a lady who loved family history and worked in the library for years but was not a member).
Roy wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:
*What Mr. Reed says about some other ancient beliefs relating to other religions may not be totally accurate.
I have yet to watch the movie. However, I have seen some apologetic responses to the basic assertion that a number of elements from the gospel stories of Jesus were copied from other heroic demi-god myths (think Hercules). As Mormons we are somewhat insulated from this sort of attack on belief because we believe that there have been several rounds of falling away or apostasy and that this could be an explanation for why there are similarities between “true” and “false” religions.
There are definitely some ancient stories that have similarities to the Jesus story. Mr. Reed’s point is to instill doubt in the sisters, one of which probably already has some doubts. Mr. Reed presents himself as someone who has extensively studied theology and asserts there are at least 12 such stories, including one from ancient India. I haven’t looked in depth at the idea because I don’t particularly care. There are lots of similarities to Judeo-Christianity in other ancient cultures, including things like the 10 commandments and the great flood. These things don’t shake my already severely shaken faith, but likely could affect young (or old) Mormons who have never been taught anything else or bothered to wonder or think outside the bubble.
Roy wrote:
Minyan Man wrote:
I recently saw a show on TV that is part of a series called “The Curious case of…”. The episode I saw was called:“The Curious case of Jodi Hildebrandt”. She was a licensed counselor used by the church to do family counseling, etc.
Here is a summary of her life:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodi_Hildebrandt If you have the chance to see this episode, I recommend it. This is an extreme example of how religious beliefs can be
distorted & migrate into our (LDS) culture.
I was actually thinking of Jodi Hildebrandt while reading Skipper’s recent post. I agree that individuals should be wary of “Life Coaches.”
P.S. From what I know of Jodi, the religious beliefs became so badly distorted as to be hardly recognizable as LDS
I was also thinking of Hildebrandt, and over the weekend I watched the Hulu docuseries on Ruby Franke (
Devil in the Family) which of course includes quite a bit about Hildebrandt and her influence not only on Ruby Franke, but her husband Kevin and son Chad (as well as others). There’s no question Hildebrandt is a bad apple, and all professions have their bad apples. But Hildebrandt is not the only bad apple in the “life coach” bushel, and not even in that particular area (“Happy Valley” in Utah). Of course Hildebrandt was also a licensed therapist at one point and even recommended by the church which made things even a bit worse for those harmed by her (and exacerbated some of the harm in some people). I’m much more inclined to side with Skipper as far as life coaches are concerned. Except when they are also licensed therapists they are unregulated and there are not any professional “industry standards” as far as I can tell. I think they are generally to be avoided, and I while I do support professional mental health care I also think people need to be very careful who they choose to provide that kind of care (IOW do your homework and make sure the person you are seeing actually is appropriately licensed and is actually practicing appropriate standards of care). I think a professional therapist (and let me be very clear here that I am referring to licensed psychologists, LCSW, and similarly trained and licensed individuals) who delves into the life coach realm is probably a little outside their parameters – that’s not how real therapy works. To Amy’s point, I also agree that the majority of church leaders have no professional mental health or counseling training and are also generally not good resources.
Our ward has been doing cleaning assignments for a number of years. We’re all assigned a group (as families) and then the groups rotate through. The groups and upcoming assigned weeks are in the weekly bulletin and in the monthly bishopric newsletter. I have never gone and no one has ever bothered me about it. I should note that each group has ample people to complete the assignment even if most don’t show up, and there are no assigned times to show up – just “it’s your week.” All that said, I’m not a fan of assignments and I’m not a fan of building cleaning. I do get emails from “church leaders” from time to time. There is the bishopric newsletter monthly and sometimes the stake presidency sends out stuff. Otherwise I sometimes get “missionary” ones, also from the stake but not the presidency, which I see what they are and simply delete. They have become less frequent. We used to also get “preparedness” emails about monthly (I’m talking old fashioned prepper preparedness, not prepare for Jesus) which I also just deleted. The stake presidency change last year ended those.
With the church calendar we can choose what to get reminders about (I get none). I wish it were the same with emails, but it seems to be all or nothing. I know that was a tech issue for the church a few years ago and people with Yahoo accounts couldn’t get emails because so many people had marked them spam. The church’s solution wasn’t to send less emails or give people the option, they simply asked people not to mark emails as spam.
AmyJ wrote:
I think that men and women were badly hurt by the sexual ethics taught as moral principles by individuals with a specific perspective believing that their words were inspired.
The psychologist side of me* agrees very strongly with this sentiment Amy. I believe church leaders have done great psychological harm to countless young people by such teachings put forth in the way they have done.
*I am not a psychologist but I have worked very closely with psychologists, including psychologists who are church members (mostly less active), and I do have some training and education in the field.
I lean very Universalist* and I believe Joseph Smith was for the most part, especially later in his life, also a Universalist. His father and grandfather were also very Universalist oriented. While I won’t go so far as to say it doesn’t really matter what we do or don’t do in this life, I do believe it doesn’t matter all that much. Jews don’t have a real belief in Hell as a place of eternal punishment, or even that there is a hell at all. I’m not so sure that Hell isn’t a construct of later Christianity designed purely to instill fear. I believe in loving Heavenly Parents who do not punish us and that justice is much more about fairness than retribution. We are all going to get some measure of mercy, some more than others (and paraphrasing Jesus, who do you think will be more grateful?). It certainly may take some of us much longer to progress than others. I appreciate Nibbler’s research on the subject of eternal progression through kingdoms. I believe it is very possible, even likely that such progression is the way it really is/will be (with the caveat that such kingdoms even exist – I’m not sure they do). Prior to the “McConkie era” (as late as the 1970s) it was a common teaching, even from the General Conference pulpit, that we do indeed progress through kingdoms.
*Universalist in this case is the classic definition that all human souls will eventually be saved. (Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is the Christ.)
These are in addition to others added last year. I think this is the third (?) installment. An earlier one included the favorite “Come Thou Fount of Every Blessings.” I think of note in this one are a personal favorite of mine “Softly and Tenderly Jesus is Calling.” Also “This Little Light of Mine,” which seems to be a bit more “upbeat” than many of the others we’re used to. I’m sure some of our more stodgy organists will still be able to make it sound like more of a funeral dirge.
I have generally liked the additions. I could live without “Faith in Every Footstep” but only because it’s too pioneer/Utah centric for my liking. I don’t dislike it as much as some other very Utah/Mormon/pioneer centric songs. And I still hold out hope for one of my favorite non-church ones “Here I Am Lord.”
I’m not sure how other wards or areas do this or if they do anything at all, but my ward now has little binders in the hymnbook slots where they’ve printed off the new hymns so they can easily be used in meetings. I like the idea, but I’m not sure it’s widespread.
I had my own PB as a young adult convert. It is very general but does check off the boxes for the “covenant path” (which was not a thing back then. It did not specifically address a mission but did promise that I’d find joy in bringing others into the church. I did serve a mission, but I currently find it very difficult to find joy in others coming into the church. My PB also addresses my chosen career and that I would always be needed. Long story short, this one was a total fail and pretty much led me to where I am today – a non-believer in the PB. I have not read my PB in many years and don’t have any desire or plans to because it’s not worth the paper it’s printed on. My own now adult children each had their PBs in due course. None of them are currently active in the church, and I don’t believe any of them put any stock in their PBs. At the time they got their PBs they probably did have some desire for them, probably like 8-year-olds desire to be baptized. This was in no small part due to their mother’s influence and the influence of their peer groups at church in addition to church leaders.
I guess my own advice would be to leave it up to them. I’m not sure of current teachings or policies regarding PBs, but traditionally it seems to occur sometime in a young person’s teens. But there’s no rule I’m aware of that states when they actually should or can. It would follow then that if they desire one as adults, great. I am generally opposed to pressuring our youngsters into doing things church related (including baptizing 8-year-olds).
Roy wrote:
Yeah, I have yet to see it because I don’t currently have Netflix but from what I’ve read it focuses on the grittier and cruel aspects of the power struggles of settling the west.
Yes, I would agree with that assessment. Most people aren’t dressed in clean, pressed clothes with no dirt, and there is violence. That said, I think the depiction of Mountain Meadows, which happens near the beginning, is less brutal than it actually was. There are other creative licenses taken with the event as well. For example, watching the series you’d gather Mountain Meadows was somewhat close to Fort Bridger, when in fact it was hundreds of miles away.
I watched the whole series a couple weeks ago, and I am also a fan of historical fiction. I enjoyed it, but I tend to like this sort of gritty western. The main plotlines don’t really develop until about halfway through, but it’s not the slow burn type of series which seem to be more common nowadays. I think the whole key is that it’s a fictional story which happens to take place around some actual historical events and includes as minor players some actual historical figures. This is not the first time poetic license has been taken with historical events or figures and it won’t be the last. The story isn’t about Mormons, Brigham Young, or Jim Bridger, they’re just in it. I was actually surprised it took a bit for the church to say anything about it. They were sort of proactive with The Heretic and the Mormon wives thing, but this series had been out for a couple weeks before they made a statement. (
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/depictions-that-deceive-when-historical-fiction-does-harm ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/depictions-that-deceive-when-historical-fiction-does-harm
