[DarkJedi]

Roy wrote:

I’ve heard the metaphor that rebuilding your belief system is like rebuilding an old schooner, one plank at a time, while you are sailing at sea. It is not an easy task. We’ll be here to help in any way we can.

Great analogy, Roy!

[DarkJedi]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

To add to SD’s comment, I think all of the following are often what is meant by personal revelation: 1) conscience, 2) superstitious signs, 3) what we want to do anyway, 4) instinct or gut feeling, and 5) duty we adhere to with mixed feelings.

I have to agree with Hawkgrrrl (not that I usually don’t). Since my own crisis of faith was brought on partly because of such a personal revelation, I have come to believe that real revelation exists but it’s very rare. That said, it does bother me when someone else questions a person’s personal revelation. It is personal after all, and therefore only directed at that person.

[DarkJedi]

MayB wrote:

When my spiritual shelf of issues and beliefs crashed to the floor, God pretty much fell off with everything else. I’ve been trying ever since to figure out if I believe in God at all or a higher power. Now that I’m thinking more about spirituality in general, I’m having a hard time separating it from belief in a deity. I’m leaning toward a belief in some sort of higher power, but the God that I was taught exists doesn’t always make sense to me anymore. I understand that all of the references to God in the scriptures are more the perceptions and opinions of the men who authored them, but it seems like this “never changing” God that I’ve been taught about has so many sides to him that he feels more like a many-faced God that I’m not sure I can rely on. Is it wrong of me to create my own version of God?

My crisis of faith was much like yours in that everything came crashing down – including my belief in God. I went through a time where I believed there probably wasn’t a God, but I eventually came around to the Deist idea of God and stuck with that for a long time – it’s still the basis for my belief in God. I do believe there is a God and that same God is the creator, but I don’t believe God is like he is described by most Mormons (despite what they “know” about God). I see very little in the way of God interacting with people and no intervention in personal lives. I don’t know that you’re really asking to create your own version of God, but rather your own interpretation of God. To an extent everyone does that, it just happens that the LDS view is indoctrinated. I do believe it’s fine to create your own interpretation, and in fact I’m not sure I would be sane if I didn’t. My view of God allows me to recognize – and even worship – a higher power yet have no expectations that God has any desire to interact personally with me or intervene personally on my behalf.

[DarkJedi]

Welcome, you are not alone here. Although my path has been different from yours, I am in a very similar spot and my faith is currently focused on Jesus Christ and what I am beginning to call “pure doctrine” in my own mind. I look forward to you sharing with us and the opportunity to share with you.

[DarkJedi]

I’m sorry I didn’t see this earlier. Welcome to the forums. I’m your age and the father of 4 (3 boys), and I served a mission in New Zealand. I hope you share your experiences with us.

[DarkJedi]

mom3 wrote:

SD – I hear, I think, what you are asking. On paper and in utopian living it sounds great. Real life though is different.

In my experience with volunteers of any kind – it’s the carrot that drives the commitment. Whether from a board member to a peon. Sometimes when I sign up to do something, my heart really does want to support it, I start out great, then suddenly life gets in the way. Before I know it, my own commitment to something I believe in, has dropped out/off.

Even with orientations etc. There is no guarantee, I won’t get sidelined – unless the carrot is enticing enough for me to not postpone my commitment.

Sorry I took so long to answer you question SD. it has been a busy few days. I quoted Mom3 because she gives part of my answer. I think people do commit with all the right intentions and really wanting to serve, but life has a habit of getting in the way. Mom3 also alludes to the motivation I mentioned earlier. Feeling good and feeling the need to serve is often outweighed by more pressing things in life.

Yes, I have accepted callings in the past because I believed I was supposed to and I have sacrificed for those callings. The busiest of these included YMP (the busiest calling in the church) and bishop’s counselor. I remember sometimes sitting in meetings and thinking “that guy is so busy serving the church he’s losing his family,” and in the long run that thought has proved to be correct. People in the church use guilt and coercion to get people to serve – I believe some people actually believe their eternal salvation depends on their calling as a primary teacher. Of course, I haven’t had a calling in 10 years and don’t plan to accept one soon, but if and when I do I will be quite choosey.

My service of late tends to more “one shot” deals or ones that don’t require a commitment like every Wednesday. I also do my own service to neighbors and friends, little things like helping with yard clean up after a storm and such. I have helped with Mormon Helping Hands after flooding in our area 2 years ago. The reason I like these things is that they don’t require me to commit time I may end up not having. I also like the kind of thing where I show up and am told what needs doing and just do it, without having to be part of planning etc. – the food pantry is a good example (just show up hand out food) and so is helping hands.

Some employers these days are much more aware of “work-life balance” than those in the past, and I think the church has recognized this to an extent as well. In the volunteer situation, it seems I have to set my own work-life balance. I personally don’t want the project to be “mine” – it’s too much like work as opposed to volunteering or serving then.

[DarkJedi]

journeygirl wrote:

It seems like lots of people separate the gospel from the church. So maybe the church is the organization, the programs, manuals etc. and people (leaders) run the church. That would make it the conduit for the gospel. Does that sound possible?

Actually, I’m not sure a lot of Latter-day Saints do separate the gospel from the church, and that’s part of the “problem.” I know you said this in your other post, (that it’s the gospel that’s true, not necessarily the church), but I really do think many members lose that in the translation. I think most members see the gospel, what they perceive as “church teachings,” actual doctrine, and the church as all intertwined and all “one.” To some this ball of stuff in the gospel, to others it is the church, and still other see it differently or see its components. In my own rebuilding of faith, I am managing to separate these things, and it is apparent others here have done the same.

[DarkJedi]

Please understand, I’m not trying to be critical here, I’m just stating my opinion.

I think the thing you need to remember here is that these people are volunteers. I understand your frustration that people “commit” and don’t follow through, but there’s no way to force them to do so – they’re there of their own free will and choice. The orientation idea isn’t a bad idea, but again, if you try to force people to do more than they want to they won’t do it because they have no motivation to do so. We commit and follow through in our jobs because we need our jobs and make money, both very powerful motivators. I think most people do have a desire to serve others in some way and find satisfaction in doing so – but those motivations are purely noble and much weaker than our job motivations. I think many times in volunteer opportunities with community/non-profit organizations people don’t realize until they’re in that’s it’s really more commitment than they wanted – and even if they realize it in an orientation, they’re likely too polite to say so then.

I recognize that a parallel can be drawn to the church with people who accept callings and don’t actually put in the minimal effort to make it work. There is another thing at work there in that I think most people only accept callings because they think they have to, but in the end it’s the same – they’re volunteers and if they don’t like what they’ve been asked to do they’re not going to put in there best efforts.

You can run a business like a business because you have power over individuals. In volunteer situations, and even in low pay jobs, you don’t have that power – they can just walk away any time.

[DarkJedi]

Thanks for posting that Sheldon. I see it will be of some value to me and hopefully others. Maybe we need a newer GA to give a similar talk.

[DarkJedi]

I’m just going to echo what everyone else has said – it’s probably not safe to talk to anyone. The exception is this site where you have relative anonymity and there is little liklihood of being outed. Sadly, that’s a cold, hard truth.

[DarkJedi]

Welcome, Chills. That part of BYU culture saddens me, but it is a reality. There are those who cope, and there are those who decide it’s just as well to get their education elsewhere. And while I think it’s more pronounced at BYU, the same culture underlies the rest of the church, at least in the US. I suppose you could always hit them up with the fact that TSM (and HWH) never served missions as young men, but I doubt it will matter much.

I have a daughter who struggles with depression, is on meds and sees a counselor. There is no way she is being punished by God. That anyone could actually think or believe that is way beyond my understanding. Mental illness is an illness, just like all other illnesses. Is everybody who gets sick being punished by God? If God is punishing you with mental illness, why isn’t he punishing really bad people? Hang in there, get the help you need. When I went through my crisis of faith, I found out who my friends were(n’t). Looks like you’ve discovered that too.

I will only speak for myself, but yes, indeed, I often see people of other faiths, and sometimes no faith at all, doing better at keeping the two great commandments than many church members do. The “one true church” does not have a monopoly on faith, the spirit, and a myriad of other things.

I did marry a member (in the temple) but I dated non-members. I once asked your question of my bishop when I was getting rather serious with a non-member. He told me that we’re all God’s children and love does not use membership status as a ruler for whether two people should get married. I think that’s probably the best advice I ever got from a bishop.

Good luck on your assessment!

[DarkJedi]

Hi, Harmony, and welcome. It appears you have probably hung around here a bit and know a bit about what happens here. I, too, am gald I found this site and wish I had found it sooner. I am very thankful for the acceptance people receive here.

As you are probably also aware, the stance of church leadership in regards to gays has changed in the past few years. I’m not sure this always trickles down, and I think some local leaders, and definately some members, don’t know what the GAs have been saying about homosexuality of late. I know a couple of gay men who both grew up in our ward, neither of them live here anymore, and neither are active. Even with the improved acceptance, I still believe it’s hard to stay LDS and be gay – but not impossible. I think your love and acceptance is most important.

[DarkJedi]

Hi Southern. I am your male counterpart – your story is so very similar to mine. Our main differences (besides gender) are that I stopped going to church when I had my crisis of faith, and I accept the idea that if my children want to be active participants in church, that’s fine with me and up to them – I don’t share with them about my beliefs (but they are obviously aware I don’t participate in prayer, etc.). My children range in age from 15-23, the oldest boy (19) is about to embark on a mission.

I think it’s really unfair that your husband tells you that not wearing garments means you don’t love him. It’s not about that at all with me, and from what you say it’s not about that with you either. Loving your spouse and wearing garments are two very separate issues. I do wear my garments, but not because my DW formally guilted me into it, but because I didn’t want to deal with the issue of not wearing them. I know that some of my beliefs hurt my wife, but I can’t help that – I believe what I believe based on my experiences. It sounds like you are able to communicate about your issues more with your husband than I am with my wife, so maybe a clearer explanation or discussion about garment wear might be in order. Or you could just suck it up like I do.

10 years ago, even 2 years ago, I couldn’t see it getting better. I’m not going to tell you it will because I don’t know that. It did get better for me, and this site has been such a tremendous help. I still have questions and sincere doubts, and there are still things I don’t believe. Most people here have things they don’t believe and have come to some middle ground or understanding on their issues – doing things their own way. I don’t think you have to lie or pretend, but you can’t be openly honest with most others, either. I am in the process of “rebuilding” my faith – deciding what I do believe, don’t believe, and have questions about. For instance, I do believe there is a God, but I don’t think he has the same attributes most TBMs believe he does. I do believe Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. I do believe there is someone on earth authorized to speak for God, but I don’t think God regularly, or maybe even ever, speaks to him. The list goes on. This process of rebuilding has helped me more clearly define what I do believe and where the church fits in. I would encourage you to start your own rebuilding, however small that faith may be.

My heart goes out to you. I’m sure others will chime in with more relevant advice. Good luck!

[DarkJedi]

I really enjoyed both the book and the movie Tuesdays With Morrie. It’s actually required reading at the school where my kids go.

There’s nothing wrong with being number two unless you can be number one. I have thought about this in relation to the three kingdoms. We’re taught that even the telestial kingdom is glorious beyond our understanding – so what’s so bad about that, right? Isn’t heaven heaven? I’ve thought about it because tomorrow may be the day the log truck crushes me on the two lane highway, and according to church teaching and scripture I would not be worthy of the celestial kingdom were that to happen. I also believe, however, that there really is no physical hell, and that hell is a state of mind or a state of being. If I could have been in the celestial kingdom and am in the telestial because of my own choices, and I really am separated from my family but don’t desire to be, then that same telestial kingdom is hell, not heaven. All that said, I try to never compare myself to others (although I sometimes meet with little success at doing so), and I believe our personal yardsticks are personal and unlike anyone else’s. My experiences are mine, yours are yours, and so forth.

Finally, I can’t resist. No one wants to be number two because you’d smell like crap!

[DarkJedi]

GodisLove wrote:

Origami is my husband. I am the more believing side of our marriage. I haven’t analyzed everything that has been said. People are so articulate with their wording and I see things a little rosier than some. Living in this right now though but my first thoughts to you DarkJedi are:

1. She has been married to you for at least 10 years through your faith crisis. She probably has resolved many of her concerns about how things will go. For instance raising kids, what happens at tithing settlement, will you support her calling/belief. I would actually encourage you to ask her if she would like to know. Chances are that she would like to support you and help you. It has to be an elephant in the room sometimes.

It is Definitely an elephant in the room fairly often. I think she would like to help, but I’m not sure she fully understands the depth of some of my doubts. Good advice nonetheless, thank you. (BTW, we have been married 23 years)

Quote:

2. The advice that has been given about respecting her beliefs is huge. She doesn’t need you to change her mind. Share your belief but also allow her the agency to choose her way regardless if it is different. You would probably want to gauge her knowledge on some topics as well. Don’t burst unnecessary bubble.

My husband mentioned that I am a freethinker, but we really don’t have issues about the same things. I have made it work for myself and have never experienced the anger that some do. I respect my spouses anger, but I don’t have to agree with him to listen and say “I still love you even if we are different”.

I really am not out to change anyone’s mind. I do think that she may have had that perception early on, probably because I was handling it wrong with her. She perceived me as angry, and I was – very angry and very hurt, like a wounded animal. That’s why I want to have a conversation, though, because I am less angry and my views have changed considerably in some areas.

Quote:

3. We, as a couple were in a really good place when this crisis started for my husband. I can think back on a few times in our 20 year marriage that it would have been rough or even catastrophic. We are committed to each other and really are best friends. We haven’t always been and the results of timing are probably huge. Mostly I just needed to know that because of his change of belief, that commitment and love did not change. He loves my kids, he loves me and is doing the best to follow his heart with his own personal integrity staying intact.

I think this is true for us, too. In some ways we are actually closer than we were 10 years ago. Immediately before my crisis, I still believed God would work everything out as I had put the issue “in his hands.” I think she still believes that, even though I am in pretty much the same situation I was in 10 years ago and she has had to go to work and is the breadwinner (in a job she doesn’t particularly like). Although I feel our marriage has teetered, neither of us has ever verbalized that.

Quote:

4. StayLDS has been a gift! I don’t know how open her thinking is but this is a place where I have been more able to understand my spouse. I have looked at other places, and for me this is somewhere that problems can be solved and respect is given to those posters. The negativity in other places oozes out of their words.I still don’t know of anyone personally that has gone through this but it has helped to not feel alone.

She doesn’t know I have found this site, and I wholeheartedly agree with you that it is a gift. I have also visited many other sites, most of which are actually anti-Mormons in disguise. I’m not sure how open she would be to a site like this – I’m not sure TBMs would actually see this site as positive because we’re free to openly discuss things here that we can’t in church, with other members in general, or on other LDS sites. Questioning things like tithing, wearing of garments, and fallibility of prophets is strictly taboo on most LDS sites, and I think that’s because they don’t want any “negative” influence on the faithful. Also, I’m not sure I want her to know what I have written here – not that we have secrets, but I enjoy the anonymity here and she would easily figure out I am the Dark Jedi.

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