[DarkJedi]

I do think it’s sad the the TR has become a weapon. This is a new idea for me. In my active years – including several in bishoprics – I don’t ever remember someone who wasn’t undergoing formal church discipline having a TR pulled. Maybe that’s something that has evolved over the past 10 years or maybe it doesn’t happen here – I know local leaders can have a huge impact on that sort of thing. Also in our area, it has always been that even an inactive father could baptize his own children as long as he met some basic worthiness – not at the TR level necessarily. I am aware, for instance, of fathers who didn’t keep the WoW and/or pay tithing being permitted to baptize their own children, partly just to give them the spiritual experience in hopes of more fully activating the individual and family. I am also aware of people who made themselves worthy of a temple recommend by being good for a couple months prior (like to attend a sealing) and then going back to their “wicked ways” soon after – and keeping the TR.

I don’t particularly struggle with tithing, but I also don’t pay (although my DW seems to overpay anyway – I don’t think that counts). I see tithing as the way the church is funded, and here in the US we do benefit through funding for ward activities and such. I remember the days when there were separate contributions for such things as ward budget and buildings. I suppose I don’t have a testimony of tithing in that, like you Roy, I see no blessings from paying tithing. I, too, have much I could be thankful for – but I don’t count those as blessings because my non-member and atheist neighbors and acquaintances also have much they could be thankful for. I think most members would be shocked if they know how few members are actually tithe payers – it’s about 15% in our ward – about 1/3 of the active membership.

All that said, I agree that it sounds positive that you may be able to baptize your daughter, and I hope it does work out that way for you. My heart has been ripped apart as I have not participated in these landmark events for my own children, and I’m not sure that’s something that can ever be fixed in our relationships.

[DarkJedi]

I’m afraid I don’t have any concrete advice to give, but I really do relate to what you’re saying. I, too, am married to a TBM wife and sometimes our beliefs clash. I do wear my garments, but honestly I only wore them for years just to keep peace and probably save my marriage. I’m not sure they’re anything more than symbolic, and without saying too much, I don’t think wearing them reminds me of any symbolism – in fact I’ve always had a hard time remembering what they mean.

The whole reminder of abuse thing you have going on troubles me. I agree with Ray, see a counselor.

[DarkJedi]

Tobin wrote:

I have a slightly different view of priesthood. I view it simply as different types of authority.

In my opinion, the priesthood that Mormons employ, the Aaronic Priesthood and Melchizedek Priesthood, are merely ecclesiastical (and man-made) in nature. They should never be confused with the real priesthood or authority of God. This authority comes from God himself and no man can give it to you. So I really don’t understand those in the LDS Church that claim they have this priesthood and then lose it?!? They never had it in the first place. And it is self-evident in my view about who really has God’s Priesthood. Signs follow them. The lame walk. The blind see. And all sorts of what we would call miracles follow them.

However, my own take on this is these people have the right to call upon God’s technology to influence events on our planet. Few beings throughout our history have ever been given this right and for good reason. If I were an advanced species, I would not give a primitive species such as we are, the ability to utilize this type of technology. Almost none of us could control our desires to abuse such power and it would ultimately be destructive in our hands.

I have to respectfully disagree, Tobin. I do believe the priesthood came from God and that he assigned his angels to ordain JS who passed it on. This is similar to the pattern with the ancient Hebrews and makes sense a similar pattern would occur in the restored gospel. And, as I stated earlier, I do think the priesthood is mostly about having the authority to do things, but I also believe there is an actual power sometimes associated with that authority. The closest I can come is blessing of the sick, which I admit I have never seen anyone actually healed that couldn’t have just been attributed to medical practice, the body’s own amazing healing power, faith, or a combination of those. I do believe it is possible, however, and I do believe it is possible for other priesthood power to manifest itself. I think the limitation is actually human and based on faith or lack thereof.

Ray, I agree. The first reference and more expanded reference to the video are quite different, no disrespect to MayB intended. There is a difference in the authority of the priesthood, the power of the priesthood, and worthiness to exercise either. I see no harm in emphasizing that one should feel worthy to exercise the priesthood, but I also believe that is a personal matter between the individual and God.

[DarkJedi]

Thanks for sharing SD. My heart goes out to you as I have experienced similar experiences with my daughter and sons, and while it hurts things remain they way they are for a reason. Thanks for the book recommend Mom3 – I’m going to try to get hold of a copy.

[DarkJedi]

I don’t know who is responsible, but the inclusion of sister missionaries in what used to be zone leader council (now mission leadership council and appointing sister training leaders has been a positive step IMO. I’m guessing somebody on the missionary committee?

[DarkJedi]

Thanks all for your supportive comments. I didn’t expect anything less.

I don’t want to do a ton of quoting, so just a couple general comments and then I’ll do a couple specific ones.

I want to have a discussion because my thinking has evolved in that I do believe more now than I did before and I am considering this return to church that I have talked about. As you may know, I’ve already decided to have talk with the bishop before that happens to let him clearly know where I stand and what the expectations should be, but I think something similar should happen with my wife – I don’t want to just get dressed one day and go to church leaving her wondering what’s going on. Secondly, I am comfortable with her beliefs and those of the children. I have always been supportive of them attending any and all church activities they like, I have been supportive of her calling (she was early morning seminary teacher until recently) and picked up the lion’s share of the housework, cleaning etc. so she can work and do what she feels she needs to do to fulfill her calling. I am supportive of my son who has a mission call and is leaving soon. I’m the one with the tech know-how to make sure conference and other broadcasts are the TV at my house. I don’t believe support is an issue. Lastly, I have “lived the gospel” for lack of a better term while I have been inactive. I do wear my garments, I keep the WoW, I strive to keep the two great commandments (and thus all the others), and while I don’t actively participate in meal prayers I do passively participate (bowed head, eyes closed). We were never big on FHE, but we do indeed spend more quality time together than most families I know, and I do participate in gospel discussions to the extent I feel comfortable without being pushy about my personal beliefs – again, I’m not out to convert anyone.

I think I answered at least one of your questions with the above, Heber13. I think a conversation is going to be necessary soon.

Orson, that is the philosophy of my life – each of us experience different things and each of us experiences them differently. Clearly the situation that led to me almost leaving the church was experienced much differently from her perspective.

On Own Now, good point: “The most important thing that I keep in mind is that I’m the one who changed, not her, so it is my burden to bear. I have to accommodate her beliefs, because they were our beliefs at one time.” While I am supportive as outlined above, I could probably do better. I am fully comfortable with her activity and the boys’ activity in church and church related activities. Approaching what I do believe is the tricky part since I don’t exactly know what I believe, and thinking back, the limited discussions we had in the past did focus on what I didn’t believe (which was most things at the time).

Thanks Ray for the links – I had read Thestrals et al before, I will peruse the other one.

[DarkJedi]

That’s the real dilemma, Ann. If people who have been taught for years – all their lives – come to the realization that plural marriage may have been a false doctrine (and I’m not taking a stand on whether it is or isn’t) or that Joseph may have many more blemishes than they thought, then their faith gets shaken. Having gone through that shaking to the core, and I think being better for it although I don’t currently attend church, it’s something that will cause some people to leave the church. Because of hiding these things for so long and in fact teaching the opposite, the church doesn’t really have a way to save face, as it were. I think the church is doing the right thing by making these documents available, but it will come at a cost. The real question is will there be more like me who don’t really care because Joseph was either a prophet or he wasn’t, or will there be more who leave the church and/or join the antis because of it.

[DarkJedi]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

One other thing to consider is where you live. My son is living where I did when I was there, in a complex that is about half UVU / half BYU. It’s not such a zoobie culture. The ward is YSA not BYU and meets at UVU campus. But it’d BYU approved housing.

I certainly agree that living in “approved housing” is better than living in campus housing to assuage some of the culture. There are UVU and other students (like cosmetology) in those complexes as well. I just wanted to point out that a couple years back they eliminated BYU wards – they call them all YSA wards & stakes now, even for on campus housing. In fact, even though my daughter has graduated and has a real professional job, she still lives in Provo (not in approved housing, but very nice nonetheless) and unfortunately for her is still in a YSA ward that includes some BYU students.

[DarkJedi]

Thanks, May. I haven’t found the video yet, and I do have to go to bed soon – seminary starts in the morning and it is my job to wake the boys.

I guess I can see the worthiness connection here. I consider myself fairly worthy, my “sin” being that I don’t attend church – but I do live the gospel and keep the commandments at least as well as when I did attend church. Certainly a member’s feeling of worthiness has to figure into how he feels about using the priesthood – whether the priesthood would actually be less effective if he did anyway is probably worth thinking about. Say, taking your description of the video, that the boy didn’t repent and baptized the girl anyway. Is the girl’s baptism not in effect or, for lack of a better word, “legal?” I’m thinking that since the girl had no idea of his worthiness, it would be no different than any other baptism, and maybe even if she did know – he does have the authority, which I think is mostly what the priesthood really is (although I don’t deny that there is an actual power there).

So, is it a good thing to teach? The gospel is at least in part about repentance, doing good, loving your neighbor, loving God, so yeah, it’s good to teach those things. Are there other and/or better ways to teach it? Sure. A theme I see on these forums often is people trying to deal with guilt piled on by teachings of the church (which may or may not be doctrinal teachings). I attempt to deal with that myself, and have not come to terms with it yet. Tying this in with another thread, was JS unworthy to exercise his priesthood because of his alleged polyandry? Maybe that’s what was happening that leads some people to believe he was a fallen prophet (which I do not believe, to be clear). Time to ponder some more (and go to bed).

[DarkJedi]

Thanks for starting the new thread. I’m trying to find the video (it must be on the church site somewhere). I guess I’m a believer in once one has the priesthood, he always has it. I suppose the discussion could be about the power of the priesthood. As an inactive and questioning and doubting member, I have not used my priesthood in some time, but I’m not sure it would be any less effective – really, what do we do with it anyway? I haven’t ever witnessed or even heard of an actual mountain mover, and while I believe in healing by the laying on of hands, I’m not actually sure I have ever witnessed that, either. maybe I’ll chime in again after I find that video.

[DarkJedi]

Old-Timer wrote:

I’m not trying to hold up Joseph as a model of virtuous behavior (since I don’t see him as such), but I am saying the standard we (collectively) tend to demand of our prophets and apostles (particularly in the case of Joseph, who can be seen, I believe, more in the role of an Old Testament prophet than any other type) simply is not consistent with history and our own scriptural canon. The majority of exceedingly extraordinary people throughout history have carried baggage on the other side of their “greatness”, as well. I don’t see that disconnect as their fault (even as I see their actions as their fault); I see that disconnect as our fault, and I include leadership in that statement just as much as general membership – more so, in an important way, since the leadership has condoned and even encouraged that unrealistic view.

As I’ve said in other threads, I don’t see how anyone who accepts the Biblical prophets can reject Joseph as a prophet based on his weaknesses and mistakes. I can see how that person can reject him for other reasons, but to say his actions disqualify him . . . I just don’t see it.

Agreed, Ray. That’s why when I have heard/read things in the past about JS (and BY) it doesn’t bother me. I am far from perfect and have never met any man or woman who is near perfect. I can accept that JS experienced what he experienced in the grove and that he received other revelations and still sin like the rest of us. I really think this whole infallibility thing carries over from teachings of the first and still majority Christian church. The LDS church hasn’t ever helped itself by trying to hide it or ignore it. I have studied the histories of some of our founding fathers in some depth, and, as you point out, they are not the “saints” they are portrayed to be, either, and many stories that are taught to us in elementary schools and never later refuted are also quite false (Thanksgiving, Paul Revere, etc.). That doesn’t mean those people didn’t do great things, and the greatness of our country is based upon their good deeds. Likewise, much of what we are taught in SS, seminary, etc., isn’t doctrine and probably wouldn’t be recognized by those early church members as something the church believes – they did believe in JS, though, and undoubtedly some of them saw his warts (although admittedly, I believe that’s why many of the early leaders left the church – almost ll of the original 12, for instance).

[DarkJedi]

MayB wrote:

… complete with a video about teenage boys temporarily losing their priesthood power for being unkind or stealing and then gaining it back when they apologized and set things right.

I don’t want to highjack the thread, but seriously, there’s a video like that?

[DarkJedi]

SilentDawning wrote:

I have to be a bit frank here. These kinds of statements disturb me….we DO make huge claims about prophets, about the need to live our lives clean, Moses shut out of the promised land because he didn’t follow basic instructions. That prophets will “never lead us astray”. To have a prophet that had sexual urges he could not control, and then led his people to practice a sanitized form of sexual promiscuity as a form of “covering his sines” is definitely leading the people astray.

I agree with SD here – we (as in the Church) DO make claims about prophets. Don’t believe us? Take a gander at this (CES fireside May 5, 2013): https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ces-devotionals/2013/01/our-prophet-thomas-s-monson?lang=eng” class=”bbcode_url”>https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ces-devotionals/2013/01/our-prophet-thomas-s-monson?lang=eng Oh, and don’t forget those 14 Fundamentals!

[DarkJedi]

I more-than-encouraged my daughter to get a degree in which she could get a job for those same reasons. She’s a bit of a feminist anyway, so it wasn’t really a problem, although her first choice initially had been archeology. She is 22, graduated from BYU, and does have a job she likes in her field. Frankly if it wasn’t for my wife being a nurse, we wouldn’t have survived.

As for the missionary – he’ll come back with a testimony. When I served, there were lots of Utah boys there, most of which didn’t really have a testimony. Of course, the testimonies they got may be of non-doctrine (I’m still trying to find a word for that stuff that so many TBMs “know” that isn’t really doctrine), but a testimony nonetheless.

[DarkJedi]

SilentDawning wrote:

Two semesters is not that long in the landscape of life, although it probably seems really long now.

My advice? Embrace the unorthodox people there, the non-members, use the internet to stay connected with your own views of the world. And focus on your studies. Do well, and then close that chapter of your life. The good news is that you aren’t in the same position as a man with a mortgage, a TBM spouse (I assume) and your whole status in the community tied to your service and belief in the church. This is only a short period.

Keep your unorthodoxy to yourself. And work at deciding what YOU really believe about all the things you hear at church. Look for those people who are the targets of judgmentalism and and then make them feel at home….

I couldn’t have said it better than SD. Suck it up, finish, and move on. I do have some empathy for your situation, my daughter, a recent BYU grad, also struggled with conformity while there. Finding the other non-conformists doesn’t seem to be an easy task. Don’t participate in activities (like ward prayer) you don’t want to because you feel like you’re supposed to, and live off campus (which I assume you would anyway). There are other things to do in Provo beside church activities (there really are) and the new train to SLC is relatively cheap and opens up even more avenues. Good luck!

[Author]

Posts