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I also am looking forward to this series. I doubt I will read them word for word, or maybe not at all. But the idea that the stuff is out there and available for anyone to look at is promising. I really think the church would do itself a favor by cleaning out the closet, so to speak. If it’s out there in the open, the antis can’t say the church hides it for one thing. My perception of the Church’s attitude towards gays has changed. It seems to me that the church leadership is much more openly accepting and understanding these days. At the same time, I know that statements such as declaring celibate gays worthy does little to avert the feelings you have where marriage and rearing children is an emphasized part of the culture. You have described your bishop as a loving and understanding man. I think I would not be shy about sharing with him what you have shared with us. From what you have said here, I see no reason for you being treated any differently than a single sister. Hi Jazernorth. I do relate to your feelings about speaking & teaching in church. Before I stopped going to church I asked to be released from my GD teaching position because I felt I couldn’t teach that which I didn’t believe. I also think SS & PH meetings are more difficult than SM because there’s so much more input from class members who like to repeat non-doctrine as doctrine. I’m sorry that I didn’t make it clear to you that I haven’t been to church in over 10 years, but I am on the verge of returning. My plan upon return (as outlined in my own introduction) is to attend only SM and to not accept any calling or invitation or pray or speak – like you, I have no problem saying no. While being on this site has given me some encouragement about the possibility of returning to SS & PH at some point in the future, I’m not sure how long that process may take and it’s possible it may not happen at all. If you don’t feel good about going to SS or PH, don’t go. While my plan is to actually leave the building and go home, in my experience there are plenty of skippers in the foyers or sitting in cars in the parking lot if you feel you must stay. I’m not really sure you’re asking if doubtcan be taught, or if you’re asking whether questioningcan be taught. I think others who have posted have also tried to make this distinction, and it is more than semantics. I do question things and I do have doubts about things, but not necessarily the same things. For instance, I do have questions about the nature of God. Is God really the kind, loving father figure that Mormonism seems to embrace? Is God really omnipotent? Why does God choose to intervene sometimes but not others? Why didn’t God save his chosen people from the Nazi tyranny? Some of these questions can likely be answered in this life, some I may not know until after this life, or maybe never at all. But I don’t doubt God could be that loving God – he could be, I just wonder if that’s true. I don’t doubt God is omnipotent, I just wonder if he is. I don’t doubt God can and does intervene, but I don’t know why he seems to sometimes but not others. I don’t doubt God could have saved the Jews from the Holocaust, but I don’t know why he didn’t. While I’m mostly a questioner, and like Ray, a believer, I have a couple doubts, too. Doubt is bigger than questioning, and it connotes a negativity of belief. While questioning supports belief, and can confirm belief (and faith, which I have little of), doubt is the antithesis of belief, and is built on the basis of not believing. I don’t think you can teach doubt any more than you can teach someone to believe. You can teach to question, though.
Heber13 wrote:What are your thoughts on the times when Joseph Smith had feelings and they were wrong? If he was pretty close to God and that happened, surely we would also have that happen to us. How does that make sense to you?
I hadn’t really considered this before, Heber. Can you give us some examples? This intrigues me.
Welcome. I can truly relate to your story, it was in a big way following my feelings (which I truly thought were promptings of the Spirit) that led to my crisis of faith as well. That was over 10 years ago, and I haven’t gotten over that yet – but I have learned to cope without relying on those feelings. I still don’t know how to discern spiritual promptings from just plain emotions and I don’t know that I will in this lifetime. The old “if it’s good then it’s OK” advice doesn’t work – I was doing good things and got a bad result. So, hang in there. Logic and thoughtful decisions might take longer, but you aren’t worse off. You’ll find that many of us here relate very well to what you are feeling, and just knowing that has given me hope. You and I are not alone in the world, nor are we alone in the Church – it just seems that way until you come here.
MissEyre wrote:I appreciate all of your insightful comments. As I’ve considered some of the ideas brought up, I think it all boils down to validation. I am certainly not seeking to destroy anyone’s faith by exposing them to issues that they might not know about; rather, I am seeking a thoughtful conversation where issues and concerns are labeled as valid and worthy of discussion. Wishful thinking perhaps?
It might be wishful thinking. If someone is open to the idea that there might be other points of view, then I believe exposing them to other ideas and issues might be fruitful – it might produce the thoughtful conversation you seek. However, I find that most TBM types are not open to that idea and there can be no other point of view in their way of thinking. I’m not saying they’re stupid or not thoughtful or not capable of engaging in conversation, I think they’re just unwilling to do so because they fear what it might lead to. Why they fear truth is beyond me because I think we are all counseled to seek truth. It’s very much like “A Bible, a Bible….”
As already pointed out here, I have also found that open, thoughtful conversation can be had on these forums. This isn’t the place for anti stuff, but asking a question or seeking the truth never seems to get anyone in trouble here.
I have encountered this, and of course I have heard counsel to avoid anti sites. There are those who consider even the FAIR type sites, and probably this site, as anti because they’re not official sites. That said, I think I understand why. I have been known to visit an anti site or two, and while there is truth to information presented I have yet to find one that was completely truthful about what they present. That is, they mix truth with untruths, take things grossly out of context, or purport as doctrine or beliefs that which is not. Ah, but you say, so do pro sites (not officially associated with the church), and I agree. Even LDS.org is guilty, but not to purposely deceive IMO. You can’t control what others think or do, nor are you likely to convince them otherwise. if it’s a matter of you getting into arguments with them, simply avoid it – it’s not worth it. It’s up to you to decide for yourself what is true and correct, if that’s what you seek. The technology exists for use as a tool for you to make an informed decision.
MissEyre wrote:I’m so grateful to the administrators for creating a safe haven for the broken hearted.
I often describe my crisis of faith as a time when my heart was broken. I still feel broken hearted at times. Welcome, this is the safe harbor you seek. I agree with all that Hawk & SD have said to you, and I hope you find much more good advice here as you continue your journey to find your own way.
DarkJedi wrote:I agree with you. There was a recent talk (maybe it was around TSM’s birthday?) given by a GA that was nothing but praise for TSM. I don’t deny he’s a good man nor do I deny he is rightly president of the church, holds and can exercise all the keys, etc. It just struck me when I heard it as very close to worshiping him. I’ll try to find the link.
OK, found it, here it is:
http://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-walker-shares-five-ways-to-be-like-president-monson?lang=eng&query=life+of+president+monson ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-walker-shares-five-ways-to-be-like-president-monson?lang=eng&query=life+of+president+monson I would actually just be happy if the church said something along the lines of “we have $xx, we have invested $xx for future needs, we spent $xx on humanitarian service, $xx on buildings and maintenance, $xx on the missionary effort, etc.” That said, no other church that I’m aware of does this, either, except perhaps at an individual congregation level in protestant churches where they have a board the operates pretty much independently. By making a financial statement, the church could certainly quell some anti arguments, but of course would spur some other ones. mercyngrace wrote:I was making the point that we have criticized other faiths for turning men (or women) into idols and yet commit the very same kind of idolatry ourselves to some degree.
I agree with you. There was a recent talk (maybe it was around TSM’s birthday?) given by a GA that was nothing but praise for TSM. I don’t deny he’s a good man nor do I deny he is rightly president of the church, holds and can exercise all the keys, etc. It just struck me when I heard it as very close to worshiping him. I’ll try to find the link.
Old Timer wrote:I think this is related, even though it’s not about confidential discussions:
In Priesthood meeting yesterday, the topic of reaching out to inactive members came up. I mentioned, for the whatever time, that I know a lot of members online who are struggling in some way with issues of faith and activity – and I stressed that one of the constant themes I hear from them is that they don’t want to be “projects” that are discussed with solutions crafted for them. Rather, they want people to listen to them and accept that they aren’t faithless or slackers or bad in some way simply because they don’t see things the same way as most traditional members. They want to be accepted for who they are – not “fixed” and made into someone else, and they want, especially, to be respected as people who understand themselves and know what they need. They want to be treated as adults, not children, in that sense.
There was a member of the Stake Presidency in the meeting, and the lesson was taught by a counselor in the Bishopric. I got nothing but nods to my comment, and it was referenced later in the lesson. I have no idea if it will change anything immediately, but it needed to be said to have any chance of making a difference.
Oh, that each unit of the church had a voice like yours, Curt. Alas, there are relatively so few of us who are active, and even fewer willing to speak up. Thank you.
I certainly can admit when I’m wrong, SD, and a big part of my own crisis if faith was the realization that I was wrong about many things – at one point I actually decided I was wrong about everything from God on down which enabled me to start rebuilding. And, of course, a huge part of that rebuilding is deciding what I was wrong about and what is actually true. Again, my thoughts on sustaining are evolving as a result of this conversation. I’m not so sure I’m wrong, though, about what others (specifically referring to “normal” active TBM types) believe when they sustain. There is an implication there that the person being sustained has been called of God, again, more so with some callings than others, but to some extent the implication is always there, even though it’s not contained in any handbook or explicitly spelled out in the scriptures. But then, there are many such examples of this unwritten “doctrine” among TBMs. And maybe it’s not that way everywhere, but I think in my area it’s pretty much taken for granted in people’s minds that every time they raise their hands to sustain someone, that person has been duly called of God.
