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I love this thread, for the warm feeling in my heart, listening to y’all sharing your feelings about your lives. Since most if not all in this forums are having painful FC. I believe it is very important that no matter what challenges we face, it is important to recognize the good things in your life including family and friends. I suspect the overwhelming preponderance of people who come to this forum have a roof over their head, know where our next meal is coming from, have change in our pocket, have a computer which enables us to communicate with friends in a safe and positive environment for those feelings closest to our heart. If we have any of those things, we are better off than the vast majority of mankind. On the brighter side, consider the difference between a pessimist and an optimist. Given a pony, the pessimist would complain all the hard work and expense required to maintaining one is. The optometrist, when seeing a pile of horse manure he feverishly digs through it. When asked why, the optimist explains “with all this sh*t, there’ got to be a pony in here somewhere!”
The comments in this thread show many folks who are or have been in a painful FC. Yet, comments in this thread they find positives things they like about the church & culture: kind folks wanting to help folks, sacred music, a fun/safe place for kids to play and learn, a theology that teaches truth that resonates in you, like the plan of salvation, an understandable concept of God who cares deeply about us and our struggles, an understanding of of man’s role in God’s universe.
IMO one of the most powerful, yet universal practices open to virtually every man, woman and child, is gratitude. With it you make lemonade, as we humbly recognize those things in your life, and in the lives of you, your family, friends and community. Gratitude is a powerful attitude that brings happiness, joy, and a life worth living. Without gratitude, we are left with lemons that sour virtually everything we see and do.
It’s no longer just rumor. Elder Todd Christopherson explains the Q15’s thinking about the policy decision and how that is, in his view, an expression of divine principles and doctrine. Read’em and weep, or shout for joy if so inclined.,
I agree Ray’s article is terrific. Coincidentally I found in my email box an article published by BYU. It’s not as good as Ray’s, but it is more rational than most church stuff. It can be found here
Many years ago, while living in SLC, I was a member of a discussion group which met monthly in different members’ homes. SLC had a good number of thoughtful people who our well-connected group could call on for a presentation. The discussions were often heterodox though always respectful, like StayLDS and “meaty”. However, it was nothing that any Bishop would likely countenance in his building, and especially not competing in the same time slot as standard SS lessons. OTOH if the discussions lean closer to the orthodoxy, then Saturday or Sunday night firesides is the format you could follow. My wife and I have a little phrase that we say to one another, that goes along with this discussion: “I love you more than yesterday, but not as much as tomorrow.” It has helped grease the wheels of inevitable ups and downs for 25 years and counting. 🙂 Quote:Re: Question about prophetic fallibility
Postby bridget_night » 2015 May 05, 17:02
The problem I have is that some of the stuff Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other prophets did, we would get excommunicated for, and they did not.
Quote:Re: Question about prophetic fallibility
Postby Old-Timer » 2015 May 05, 22:26
Times change, Bridget.
We want them to do so, so we can’t argue about it happening. We might complain about some specific changes, but people really can be judged only in light of their times.
I feel comforted by the promise in the initiatory ritual that washes me clean of “the sins of this generation.” It gives me hope that the blinders our society bestows on us will be washed away. For example the people involved with the MMM, blacks & the priesthood, polygamy. Today we are surrounded with the mass media spewing negativity, sexuality & violence at every turn. It’s hard to not be influenced by the powerful influences of our culture.
This morning I checked and the title has been changed to “Inside the Trijillo Peru Temple–See photo gallery.” So obviously the title “Where does your faith fall on the faith spectrum? was an error that has been corrected. As to the title “Where does your faith fall on the faith spectrum?” was an actual talk as has already mentioned. I don’t have time now, but I will read it tonight and salve my curiosity. I hope it really does acknowledge some of the legitimate range of convictions, and acknowledge the legitimacy of doubt, evidence gathering, etc and not just how everything is goodness and light. I’ll write my response to the real talk I’ll write a response tonight or tomorrow.
I do like the comments above comments that point out that the meaning of the word “virtue” has changed or at least its meaning has narrowed considerably. Webster gives it 6 meanings, with only one referring to sex: Quote:noun
1 oral excellence; goodness; righteousness.
2. conformity of one’s life and conduct to moral and ethical principles; uprightness; rectitude.
3. chastity; virginity: to lose one’s virtue.
4. a particular moral excellence.
Compare cardinal virtues, natural virtue, theological virtue.
5. a good or admirable quality or property:
the virtue of knowing one’s weaknesses.
6. effective force; power or potency:
a charm with the virtue of removing warts.
I really like the five other definitions, and agree that much meaning is lost in using only to relate to sex. I think it would make a wonderful subject for a sacrament meeting, or better yet how about in GC?
Thanks guys and gals for your excellent quotes and thoughts on the subject. It has given me the courage to offer to teach the lesson. The HPGL agreed that I can teach the lesson, but cautioned that he thinks he may be released before the lesson #11 is scheduled. So my teaching in tentative. Nevertheless, to summarize the above discussion, I believe the best way to present the lesson # 11 is to contrast it with lesson #3. That will eliminate many possible conflicts with the TBMs among others. Teaching this way may well open up a thoughtful and beneficial discussion on how to handle the two principles considering
. Different stewardships
. . The individual vs. Q15 and 15+ million member church
. . The individual situations, economic, politics
. . Abilities: health, education, social, etc.
. . Personal understanding of gospel principles
. Prophets & Apostles are not absolved from mortal fallibilities
. Certainty has not been revealed on all worthy questions (AF #9)
. Faith is required for dealing with the unknown
If you aren’t teaching the class, a way of to help the discussion may be to keeping lesson # 3 handy, and let Benson argue the absurdities of lesson # 11 for you.
I just posted an item entitled “Letting virtue garnish thy thoughts” that I submitted before seeing yours. I think the submissions go together well. Dallin Oaks gave an interesting talk Oct 2012 entitled “Two lines of Communication” in which he describes two lines of communication to God: the Personal line and the Priesthood line both of which he says are necessary. I like that he recognized the essential role in Personal Revelation, I think he doesn’t give it sufficient credit. Nor does he IMO distinguish clearly the different stewardships of Church and the Individual. That talk can be found at
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/two-lines-of-communication?lang=eng My biggest problem with Oaks’ remarks was that I felt he trumped trumped personal revelation with priesthood revelation.
Perhaps I’m oversensitive. In my youth, I personally experienced to much emphasis from my file leaders telling me not only what to believe, but what to feel.
A BofM seminary class I took, started the year by promising anyone who reads the BofM through the year and gets a testimony of it will get an “A”. Nine months later at the “exit interview” I did not feel I could say I knew the BofM was true, despite reading and praying about it. I believed it, but the teacher insisted that no matter what I said, that I had a testimony.
I believe the long term affect of that interview was to compromise my sense of personal integrity (him telling me what I felt). Most every F&T meetings I get very annoyed at the kiddy parade of children, some of which must be held up to reach the microphone. It is obvious that they have been tutored and trained to spout the party line with no way of understanding what the words meant. Occasionally I will be pleasantly surprised by a pre-teen who can talk with a sincerity and use her own words to describe her feelings. But most of the time I just turn off my ears for a good part of the meeting.
IMO a similar problem is that Missionaries are told to encourage people to get their own conviction, and then the church tells people to shut up and follow the prophet. No exceptions, no allowances. Just shut up and obey. I used to do that but not any more.
Almost 40 years ago, after a simmering FC, I dropped in on a neighboring ward for Easter Sunday, hoping for uplifting message celebrating Christ. Three hours later, not a single reference to Christ or the atonement, except for the obligatory prayers. The song selections even missed the mark. That’s when I went AWOL for 17 years. Now my wife and I solve the problem by going to an Episcopalian Easter celebration. They do a good job of noting the reason for the season, that helps me be a bit more tolerant of Mormon business-as-usual bland Easter and Christmas.
