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IMHO no bishop or branch president would ever even question that…”are you a full tithe payer?” is a yes/no question….no explanation needed. It’s the individual’s honest opinion that counts.

Absolutely. YES!!! YES!!! YES!!!. I feel any attempt by the Bishop to define what a “full tithe” is, is totally wrong. There are to many gray areas that the Church has not ventured into to give the bishop or bp any authority to do it. No business pays taxes on their total sales. They subtract out their expenses for labor and materials. Likewise, you aren’t responsible for your husband’s share. It is what you feel comfortable with, not what the bp does. Talk it over with your husband, for it affects him as well, and then pay what you feel is God would have you do.

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Let me share a story of how I got a temple recommend after 15 years of activity when I presented myself as anything BUT an active TBM.

I went AWOL from the Church for 15 years because, for me, it had lost all sense of spirituality / usefulness, etc. I walked after setting thru 3 hours of meetings on Easter Sunday, when, with the exception of the prayers, the words “Jesus Christ” were never mentioned once! This was in a Salt Lake ward. I checked out a few other churches, but nothing particularly rang my bell. So I mostly soloed after that time. It enabled me to go hiking and backpacking on weekends with no guilt, and I certainly felt more uplifted than I was in all those boring meetings. I gave up on G’s and all other ties with the church. I got rid of most, but not all of my church books. But I did keep some of the outward observances. I didn’t sleep around, didn’t smoke, and drank only occasionally.

Fast forward 15 years later. I was taking a Sunday walk, enjoying a pleasant walk thru the neighborhood. As I passed a Mormon Church, I felt the distinct impression that I needed to go to Church. It was clear enough, that I decided to pay attention. So I started occasionally going to Sacrament Meeting, always ward-hopping and never letting anyone nab me. I certainly didn’t want to get proselytized. This went on for a couple of months feeling OK, but then I got another distinct impression. I needed to go talk to my Bishop. I didn’t even know the guy! but since my ward was literally next door, it wasn’t hard to find who it was.

The bishop turned out to be a kindly man who was a good listener, and not inclined to pressure or judge. He let me vent a bit, as I described my disappointments and reservations about Mormondom. For the most part he actually agreed. I had a couple of these sessions with him, when something else came bolting out of heaven and into my tiny little brain. I got engaged (at age 47) to a lady who not only was active LDS, she was a temple worker! Although we had known each other for 17 years and were best of friends, we had never thought of marriage (at least at the same time), until now. I had shared with her my heresies throughout the years She said she would be happy to marry me, anywhere I wanted, and offered one venue where we could do it very inexpensively. Every year she went to a family reunion in Tennessee. There were 2-3 ministers of various protestant religions who would do it free. They met at a Summer Camp in the hills that is very beautiful and scenic for a wedding. But she also asked if I would ask my Bishop what it would take to get a temple recommend. Well with an offer like that, I couldn’t help but want to indulge her request.

I went to the interview having absolutely no expectations. But I certainly was well aware of the improbability of me getting a recommend. The Bishop was amazingly not shocked by my request. We talked for some length about the interview questions, and my most common response was “I really don’t have a problem with it” even though I obviously had no enthusiasm for it. Once we had chatted about the questions, he said, let’s now go thru the questions formally. I’ll read the question and you give me a straight yes, no, or earnestly trying without other explanation. I did, and he then paused for a few minutes for a silent prayer asking God’s input. Then he announced he felt good signing the recommend. He then counseled to give one word answers to the Stake President, who loved to get into the details. But my Bishop counseled against such discussions with him. The was a prosecuting attorney by profession, and not very tolerant of people who didn’t toe the line.

My bishop also asked me to start paying tithing, attending Church, and wearing my G’s again. I told him I would as best I could. It has been 17 years since that happened. He knew what I was Moving out of state to where my fiance lived so follow-through was entirely up to me. Since then I have learned to stand on my own feet visa vie Mormondom, I do those things I committed to do to my Bishop, but not as other people think I should, but as I think I should. But every time I renew my temple recommend I review the questions before hand (they’re available on the internet) to make sure I feel right with them. Then I answer the questions with the simple yes, yes, no, and earnestly trying. I feel good afterward and the interviewers seem satisfied.

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For a long time I have contemplated this question, and I am grateful that I have never felt it needful to confront unrighteous dominion of my government. I don’t think I have any great insights, but would like to share a few thoughts.

The Church teaches, and I believe that America is a very special place, at least until recently. The Constitution is an amazing document, and the American experiment in democracy is absolutely astounding. In so many ways, our nation has blazed new paths to lighten the burdens of mankind throughout the world. But evil raises its ugly head even here. The Saints were massacred in Hans Mill, driven out of Nauvoo in the dead of winter by mobs, and Joseph Smith was assassinated. They fled the then US territory to settle in Salt Lake, but even then Johnson’s army came to put down the “Mormon Rebellion”. That was followed by persecution by officials in the territory and national governments because of their religious beliefs that led to the federal takeover of Church properties and very nearly took over the temples. The Church came very close to bankruptcy. Subsequently, once all attempts at challenging the legality of such government actions failed, they changed their doctrine. With great difficulty Utah gained statehood, but it’s Senator Reed Smoot was denied a seat in the Senate for all of his first term, until his persecutors finally relented.

During all that abuse and persecution, the times when Mormons fought back with violence was by far the exception and not the rule. The folks at Hauns Mill fired a few shots off before they were overwhelmed 10 to 1 and killed, a Joseph and his cell mates were able to get off a couple of shots before he and his brother were likewise massacred. But while Brigham Young was verbally challenging to the approach of John’s Army, he made every attempt to avoid violence. He was willing to torch Salt Lake before allowing the invading army to take what they wanted. The only exception to clear defensive use of violence was the massacre and Mountain Meadows. While the local Mormons were clearly the aggressors in that instant, it was in a highly charged environment of Johnson’s army approaching Salt Lake while verbally aggressive anti-Mormons moving through the territory making threats all the way.

So I interpret that for myself, I believe the Church encourages us to avoid violence of all kinds whenever possible. Aggression should be used only as the last option. In dealing with oppressive governments and others, it seems to me that staying under the radar is typically the better way, though specific situations may call for something else. Joseph shot back, Brigham didn’t. Saints in Nazi Germany primarily kept a low profile, while a couple of Germans heroically resisted. But confrontation of all kinds usually gets many people hurt or worse. That is why I personally hate the political climate in our country today. Everyone is yelling at everyone else. Few people are looking for common ground, most just assume “if you’re not with me, then you are against me.”

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Poppyseed wrote:

Knowing more about a subject doesn’t necessarily make one prideful. And if someone does know more about particular subject, I am not sure they should be embarrassed about that or diminish the significance of that just so that everyone feels equal. Aren’t we all trying to gain more wisdom? Isn’t that the goal?

I like the analogy of circles. Assume a circle could encompass all you know, but only that. Now imagine as your knowledge grows the circle must grow with it. And as it does its circumference expands proportionally, exposing you to more and more of what you don’t know. For this reason, I believe knowledge and education should only lead you to increase your humility. All else is vanity and will result in distracting you from further discoveries, IMO.

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The question reminds me of a joke,

On Sunday morning, Johnny tells his mother, “I don’t want to go to church. People don’t like me, I don’t like them very much either, and the meetings are boring. Just let me sleep.

The mother responds, “Johnny, that doesn’t matter. You’ve got to go anyway, you’re the bishop. 😆

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I would like to keep the discussion focused on the First Vision and the conclusions that we here have made about the information — the reconciliation strategies. Ahman makes a conclusion….Are there other possibilities?

For me, my renewed commitment to the Church and its primary claims have come in a round-about fashion. I stumbled across some anti-Mormon stuff on the internet that was so blatantly biased, manipulative, and absolutely left me cold. Although my commitment was shaky, I found myself correcting their errors in-fact, in logic. and in the finer points of civic discourse. The would have nothing of it, and launched into a personal attack on me.

The contrast between their version of reality and the Church’s was the difference between black and white. I know that I sound like TBM saying that, but I am well aware of the warts of the GA’s, BofM, Church history, etc. All that doesn’t particularly matter to me because I simply feel better inside when I live the Mormon lifestyle. It simply works for me. So anomalies in Church History, are just background noise. I compare my life now with what it might have been if I had grown up Baptist, Presbyterian, Catholic, or whatever. I suspect that I am much more self-controlled, confident, more comfortable in my relationship with deity and with fellow Christians. I love Mormon concepts of Obedience/Free-agency, Pre-existence, Truth, Eternal Progression, Nature of God & Man, that ALL mankind will have the opportunity to accept the Gospel (in this life or the next). No other religion, especially those who believe in the importance of goodness and truth, pretends to believe non-believers will also have a chance to accept God. Either they must worship the “right god” in this life or they are damned for eternity! So as time goes on, I find there is more, not fewer reasons to stay LDS.

BTW, much of Joseph Smiths, foibles have become public recently because the Church is revealing them. Very specifically, the book Rough Stone Rolling is based on the Joseph Smith Papers, which was made possible only with the full uncensored support of the Church. Their goal over 30 volumes, 2 of which are printed, is to publish EVERYTHING said by JS or people who wrote about him. (They will only be publishing these historical documents, with some descriptions giving backgrounds or contexts. But they will not be doing any interpreting, justifying, or anything. Just unvarnished facts.) While that kind of honesty hasn’t made it into the SS manuals, it is available to all who seek it out. While I wish for more upfrontedness from the Church in its manuals, I still think the JS papers is pretty gutsy. No other church is doing anything like it.

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When we see the simply amazing power of the Church leadership has in many specific instances, how can we truly believe they have no power to affect the specific loving behavior in our wards? And when we as members of this culture see the fundamentals of this culture hurting certain individuals do we not have a responsibility to work for change? Particularly when we are talking about people dying, literally or figuratively.

Wow, Gail.

You are asking some powerful questions. It sounds to me like the old paradox of being tolerant of everything except intolerance. How do you show compassion for people who are really hurting and still not appear to not be challenging the Church officials? My take on issues that I do care about deeply is to try to stay under the radar, and hope I can come out the other side OK. Maybe I’m less of a Christian for it, but I just try to deal with the issue between my ears, and don’t do much in my external reality, especially with the Church.

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It strikes me as curious that the topic of Official Doctrine seems to be primarily about what it is not:

* Traditional doctrine and culture

* Mormons’ distinguishing characteristics

* Experiencing the different realities of Mormonism

* Pure Mormonism

Is the point of the essay that difficult to understand, or am I missing something?

Quote:

The Church has confined the sources of doctrine by which it is willing to be bound before the world to the things that God has revealed, and which the Church has officially accepted, and those alone.

— Elder B.H. Roberts

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I just got an email from my TBM brother, that loosely falls under the category of “faith promoting rumor”. I don’t know whether the story is true or not as presented. The article strikes me as arrogant because it takes for granted God would protect the missionaries while ignoring the members. Or alternatitively, is God protecting the missionaries but ignoring the local members? Any thoughts?

Here’s the link

http://www.ldsmag.com/churchupdate/100303chileprint.html

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Welcome! Please don’t feel overwhelmed or intimidated here. You are on your own personal journey now. We absolutely can learn as much from your experiences as you might learn from us rambling about ours.

Ditto

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My way of doing Church on my terms plays out in a couple of ways. I have come to the point where I really enjoy teaching. I’m now teaching the HP class 2-3 Sundays a month. I decided I didn’t want a weekly commitment for 2 reasons. First, I spend considerable time preparing the lesson, trying to give them something that either informs, inspires or motivates. I can’t do a good job of that if it is every week. Second reason is that I want to play hooky, especially from PR mtg. Usually it is a waste of time imo, and I would rather be doing something else more worth while.

I have no qualms about skipping out of all meetings, especially if it is to hiking or backpacking. I love to get into nature and recharge my batteries in a way that the 3 hour block just can’t. But then when I come back, I do appreciate and value what I do get from Church. So I guess absence makes the heart fonder.

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Thank you, Ray, for sharing this story and thoughts with us. I am humbled. May God bless you and your family at this difficult time.

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I am more interested in seeing what I can do NOW to help out, and in creating as much exaltation on earth around me as I can manage with the talents and energy the Big Guy gave me. I feel like I am on the same team. We’re pals now.

Brian, I like that. Thank you.

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Before seeing this poll, I asked myself the same question. In addition to the earth quake in Haiti and Chili, with its Tsunami, there is a extremely dry summer followed by an extremly cold winter in Mongolia that is devastation this land’s primary industry which is cattle. The industry is being devastated by starving, freezing cattle, driving many poor ranchers out of buisness and reducing the country’s already meager food supply for people.

But I don’t think that 3 or 4 disasters in a row can be interpreted as being statistically significant. And I agree it’s absurd to say any of these people were being punished by God for some supposed wickedness.

As for the end of times coming soon, I see great wickedness in this country–its corruption of leaders in the financial industries resulting in our economic meltdown, the filth, porn, and hate on the internet, public values devoid of most any reasonable standard of morality and ethics, our political system that has devolved into name calling and promoting self interest over general welfare. And I see Iran getting the bomb as a viable build-up to Armageddon. And I do know, for whatever it’s worth. that the preliminary engineering plans for the prophesied temple on Adam-Ondi-Ahman were recently drawn up and are sitting in some vault somewhere in SLC.

Will it happen in my lifetime? Maybe, maybe not. But I don’t think I want to be around to find out.

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I very much appreciate this forum, for the opportunity share ideas with positive, supportive people who generally support the Church, but with out specific expectations of what I should or shouldn’t believe. It gives me a voice where I can explore my own deepest thoughts, feelings, fears, anxieties, hopes, and desires, all in a safe and positive environment. I feel I am listened to and understood. I am not censured for being wrong, or overly congratulated for being right.

I believe it is a real burden to belong to a Church that feels it has to be “right” in every pronouncement or pontification. Far be it for them to ever admit they said or did something wrong. Don’t get me wrong, I am not criticizing the PTB’s (Powers That Be), because I buy into the notion of modern day revelation. To me it makes more sense than does the “closed book” assumption of Christendom in general. Nevertheless, having to be “right” is no walk in the park.

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