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Oh how could I forget: D&C 93: 36
The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.
D&C 130: 18
Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
D&C 88: 40
For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own
Quote:
“You can lead a Mormon to science, but you can’t make him think.” or “”God proves scientists wrong all the time.”
When Mormons say stuff like the above, I try to remind myself that is not the Gospel as I understand it. Then I re-read the following verses to remind myself that I do have a good reason.D&C 109: 7 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith:
D&C 88:118.
Seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.”
D&C 88:78-80
Be instructed in theory, principle, and law of all things that pertain to the kingdom of God, including things of heaven, earth, geology, history, current events, and probable future events, things of our country and countries abroad, and international events.
Moroni 7:19
Search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.
In a Sermon on Sunday, July 9th 1843, Joseph Smith proclaimed himself a friend to all, having “no enmity against anyone.” He asked, “Why is it this babbler gains so many followers, and retains them?” He explained his secret simply: “Because I possess the principle of love.” Offering the world “a good heart and a good hand,” he declared himself “as ready to die for a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or any other denomination” as “for a Mormon.”
Narrowing the gap between Latter-Day Saints and those of other denominations, the prophet asserted, “we do not differ so far in our religious views.” He declared the Saints’ faith ready to receive the truths of all others: “One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from where it may.”
Quote:I almost wonder if it is that when people become so obedient, there needs to be “new” or higher standards to continue to work towards perfection…which I guess is better than staying stagnant and not progressing…but sometimes needs constant reality checks if it is still on course or if it is veering off in less important matters.
[/quote]I suppose some people see doing more and more but getting less and less seems like working toward perfection, but it’s more like rearranging the chairs on the Titanic. Joseph Smith said he governed his people by teaching them correct principles. If we would focus on the principles, we would have enough to keep us busy doing truly useful work for several lifetimes. Just think of the Beatitudes.
My wife tells a story of a training class she was attending where the trainer presented the mission statement (prepared by the President’s wife, who is well known for being picky) for the temple workers. It focused primarily on maintaining (reinforcing?) reverence. My wife raised her hand and asked, not so innocently, what happened to the mission statement that included redeeming the dead? After a moment of dead silence, the trainer said, “I’ll need to get back with you on that”. There was a rather irreverent chuckle among many of the attendees.
I have a couple of comments to this most interesting thread: 1) I believe that “one and only true church” is a dangerous thing, and a heavy burden to carry. The arrogance and rudeness that is all to frequently demonstrated by TBM’s is the result that most of us detest.
2) I agree completely with “Joseph insisted more than once that ‘all who would follow the precepts of the Bible, whether Mormon or not, would assuredly be saved’.” –pg 395, RSR, by Richard Bushman. The Church teaches, and I completely concur (assuming God is just and merciful) all mankind who ever has lived, who now lives, or who yet will live, will have the opportunity at least once to receive the gospel and its saving ordinances. This is why Mormons do temple work irrespective of the worthiness for the deceased. This goes for Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan, New Age, agnostic and atheist. It is my belief that the critical variable is whether the individual lives up to the highest good he knows, and is looking for ways to increase his knowledge of good. My wife tells the story of experiencing her grandmother’s presence while doing her temple work. This is the same woman who in real life molested my wife as a very young infant, with resulting psychological damage well into adulthood. We are risking our own salvation, I suspect, by judging others to harshly. A quote I love: “There’s so much bad in the best of us, so much good in the worst of us, it’s hard to tell who should convert the rest of us.”
3) I do believe Mormonism is different from other belief system in some important ways.
The Church stresses priesthood authority ( which for me is not terribly significant, but I don’t have a strong opinion), but some other important doctrinal differences are:
The nature of God, as a loving Heavenly Father leading co-eternal intelligences to a greater good.
The story of the pre-existence, War in Heaven, and what that tells us about the nature of man and the nature of our mortality.
The importance of obedience to eternal truth (“There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated – And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to the law upon which it is predicated” (D&C 130:20-21) (That’s revolutionary theology).
The importance of free choice. (and I’m not talking politics, only).
Modern day revelation, open cannon, individuals can have the gift of the HG, and hence personal revelation.
Faith defined as a call to action, even when the result is not known or guaranteed. Service to our fellow men defined as an obligation we all share (hence non-paid ministry, total volunteer organization that makes us partly saviors to our brothers and sisters! (a non-mormon theologian taught me that one).
EVERYONE, is saved from mortal death to life everlasting, Exaltation comes to the most worthy (as defined by God, not imo by the Church)
Tom Haws wrote:Hi, Herodotus.
I got the strange feeling reading your story that a small wave is beginning. You might even say a marvelous work is about to come forth among the Latter-day Saints. As the influence of Mormon Stories and forums like this one increase, perhaps more people will come to the conclusion you have that
going inactive “won’t really help much”, and consequently begin to vote with their presence rather than their exiting feet.Tom I love your comment. I’ll use it to increase my own resolve to be an influence for good, not just another nay-sayer, or boringly inactive.
I agree that the Church should not be in the business of weaving fantasies. I’m sure they started by just trying to put their best foot forward, and not trying to deceive. But as info has gotten more available the Brethren are having to face some of that. I think it’s great that an Ensign article recently addressed it, but they’ve got to do more to overcome over a century of serving up pablum in Sunday School and PR/RS lessons. But on another level, they are doing remarkably well. The book “Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Rolling” was written with their complete cooperation and support. It deals with those issues head on. And the “Joseph Smith Project” is unprecedented effort by any Church researching its past. Not only that, all the project is doing is making everything avaialble that can be found anywhere written by Joseph Smith, or about Joseph Smith by anyone who had first hand knowledge of him. They aren’t interpreting it, they are just reproducing it. Two volumes have been published. Thirty are anticipated. The info will also published on the internet. All this is being done by the support and encouragement of the Church. The Church is still struggling with how to present it to its members.
Personally these stories about JS’s marriages, revealing scripture by putting a stone in a hat and then burying your head it it, etc, don’t bother me much. I am much more interested in how the teachings of JS affect me. I have decided that they have a far better affect than anything else I can find. So I just see no reason to get upset.
A long time ago I read a statement by BY that went something like this: I would go to the depths of hell if I could find important truths there. Accepting that my prophet is human, with mortal foibles, is nothing compared to stuff in the OT that Christianity in general accepts: genocide, slavery, killing somebody for violating the Sabbath. After that, 19th century anomalies in the Church are pretty wimpy.
Welcome Porter Rockwell, Glad to see you aboard, and are working to see what does work when the old black-and-white view no longer holds true. By sharing our experiences, we can all learn from one another and have a good chance of coming out the other end better than we ever were.
It sounds like you are into a good book that I’m not familiar with. What is RSR?
Thanks for sharing,
I love sharing the Gospel with people who ask for it. I detest cramming it down someone’s throat who is indifferent or resistant. I consciously try to share a more “liberal” interpretation of Mormondom so they can better handle the quirks and stupidities that they are likely to encounter. If they are interested in such things, I will share “problems with Mormonism” as appropriate and tell them how I deal with them.
I absolutely love this discussion. Every discussion I have witnessed in Mormondom about G’s is so black and white. Although I grew up with family all wearing them as proscribed I never liked them. I remember an aunt bragging that since going to the temple for the first time she had never completely taken off her G’s for bathing or anything (xoxoxo too????). I was a wee lad at the time and maybe heard wrong, but that’s what I remember. My wife, a convert, and temple worker for 25 years has an interesting attitude about them. Her guide is to wear them so they are comfortable and comforting. That means that around the house in the summer she often doesn’t sleep with them and will tarry in the nude through much of the day sans G’s. (We live in the south where it is hot and humid, and choose not to crank up the A/C in our less than air-tight house) As for myself, I love running around in the warmer months just wearing shorts, only dawning a T-shirt if I’m going in a store. But I’ll work in the yard, get gas, or jog without a shirt. The interview question is “do you wear them day and night?” to which I can answer affirmatively.
I do have one question. I remember hearing that during the Vietnam War soldiers stationed there were told they could simply cut out the markings and put them in their wallets, because the heat was so repressive. I have not been able to confirm that since. Has anyone heard anything similar to this?
I too have struggled with trying to define faith. A scripture study didn’t help, neither did such books as “Faith Precedes the Miracle” It all sounded like mush to me. But I have finally come to a definition that I can work from. It is having the confidence to do things that require time, money, effort, commitment, or some kind of risk when I don’t have objective evidence that my efforts will get the desired result. This coorelates somewhat with Hebrews 11:1 which says “faith is the
substanceof things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Changing the word
substanceto confidencehelps. I feel comfortable with that because if you click on it at http://scriptures.lds.org/en/heb/11/1b it gives the wordassurance. Better still, the German scripture translates to confidence. “Es ist aber der Glaube eine feste Zuversichtauf das, was man hofft, und ein Nichtzweifeln an dem, was man nicht sieht.” With this definition, I can see where I exercise a fair amount of faith. I pay tithing & fast offering, I go to church most Sundays to at least 1 meeting. I pray with my wife nightly, I make extra effort to be honest in my business dealings, I wear G’s most days. These things take time, money, effort, commitment, or some kind of risk with uncertain outcomes. To be honest I do get a benefit now. I feel more a peace with myself when I do those thing
Iknow I should do. This is experimenting on the word, and finding it delicious. Not everything in the Church is but some of it is. When the Prophet Speaks, Is the Thinking Done? It is often stated by critics of the Church that the LDS people are blind followers of the prophet, and that the Church expects and cultivates such blind obedience. A quote which they choose to offer in support of this misconception is that ‘when the prophet speaks, the thinking is done.’ This statement originally appeared in the Improvement Era, in June 1945, as the Ward Teaching message for the month. This message is reproduced here, in full, as it originally appeared.
Ward Teaching
CONDUCTED UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE PRESIDING BISHOPRIC. EDITED BY LEE A. PALMER.
WARD TEACHERS
The teacher’s duty is to watch over the church always, and be with and strengthen them; And see that there is no iniquity in the church, neither hardness with each other, neither lying, backbiting, nor evil speaking; And see that the church meet together often, and also see that all the members do their duty. (D. & C. 20:53-55.)
Ward Teachers’ Message for June, 1945
“SUSTAINING THE GENERAL AUTHORITIES OF THE CHURCH”
NO Latter-day Saint is compelled to sustain the General Authorities of the Church. When given the opportunity to vote on the proposition in any of the several conferences held throughout the Church, he may indicate his willingness to sustain them by raising his right hand; he may manifest his opposition in like manner; or he may ignore the opportunity entirely. There is no element of coercion or force in this or any other Church procedure.
However, there is the principle of honor involved in the member’s choice. When a person raises his hand to sustain Church leaders as “prophets, seers, and revelators,” it is the same as a promise and a covenant to follow their leadership and to abide by their counsel as the living oracles of God. Consequently, any subsequent act or word of mouth which is at variance with the will of the Lord as taught by the leaders of the Church places the sincerity of such person in serious doubt. One could scarcely have claim upon complete integrity, if he raises his hand to sustain the Authorities of the Church and then proceeds in opposition to their counsel.
Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes, whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the “prophets, seers, and revelators” of the Church is cultivating the spirit of apostasy. One cannot speak evil of the Lord’s anointed and retain the Holy Spirit in his heart.
It should be remembered that Lucifer has a very cunning way of convincing unsuspecting souls that the General Authorities of the Church are as likely to be wrong as they are to be right. This sort of game is Satan’s favorite pastime, and he has practiced it on believing souls since Adam. He wins a great victory when he can get members of the Church to speak against their leaders and to “do their own thinking.” He specializes in suggesting that our leaders are in error while he plays the blinding rays of apostasy in the eyes of those whom he thus beguiles. What cunning! And to think that some of our members are deceived by this trickery.
The following words of the Prophet Joseph Smith should be memorized by every Latter-day Saint and repeated often enough to insure their never being forgotten:
I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 156-157.)
When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan–it is God’s plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God.
The appearance of this message caused much concern among many inside and outside of the Church. Dr. J. Raymond Cope, the leader of the First Unitarian Society in Salt Lake City, was one of those concerned. He decided to express his concerns about the impact of this message in a letter to President George Albert Smith in November of the same year. The letter was cordial, and expressed the feeling that such a message was “doing inestimable harm to many who have no other reason to question the integrity of the Church leaders… this cannot be the position of the true leaders.”
President Smith responded to Dr. Cope with a letter of his own, designed to clarify the point, at the first of December. The letter, reproduced in full below, should lay to rest any misconception about whether the Church or its leaders expect blind obedience in any degree. (Items that are underlined are underlined in the original.)
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Office of the First Presidency
Salt Lake City, Utah
December 7, 1945
Dr. J. Raymond Cope
First Unitarian Society
13th East at 6th South Street
Salt Lake City, Utah
My dear Dr. Cope:
I have read with interest and deep concern your letter of November 16, 1945, in which you make special comment on “a short religious editorial prepared by one of your (our) leaders entitled “Sustaining the General Authorities of the Church'”. You say that you read the message with amazement, and that you have since been disturbed because of its effect upon members of the Church.
I am gratified with the spirit of friendliness that pervades your letter, and thank you for having taken the time to write to me.
The leaflet to which you refer, and from which you quote in your letter, was not “prepared” by “one of our leaders.” However, one or more of them inadvertently permitted the paragraph to pass uncensored. By their so doing, not a few members of the Church have been upset in their feelings, and General Authorities have been embarrassed.
I am pleased to assure you that you are right in your attitude that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts. The Lord Himself does not attempt coercion in His desire and effort to give peace and salvation to His children. He gives the principles of life and true progress, but leaves every person free to choose or to reject His teachings. This plan the Authorities of the Church try to follow.
The Prophet Joseph Smith once said:
“I want liberty of thinking and believing as I please.” This liberty he and his successors in the leadership of the Church have granted to every other member thereof.On one occasion in answer to the question by a prominent visitor how he governed his people, the Prophet answered: “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.”
Again, as recorded in the History of the Church (Volume 5, page 498 [499] Joseph Smith said further:
“If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way.”I cite these few quotations, from many that might be given, merely to confirm your good and true opinion that the Church gives to every man his free agency, and admonishes him always to use the reason and good judgment with which God has blessed him.
In the advocacy of this principle leaders of the Church not only join congregations in singing but quote frequently the following:
“Know this, that every soul is freeTo choose his life and what he’ll be,
For this eternal truth is given
That God will force no man to heaven.
“ Again I thank you for your manifest friendliness and for your expressed willingness to cooperate in every way to establish good will and harmony among the people with whomwe are jointly laboring to bring brotherhood and tolerance[/b]. Faithfully yours,
Geo. Albert Smith [signed]
This letter can be found in the George A. Smith Papers (Manuscript no. 36, Box 63-8A), Special Collections, Marriott Library, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, Utah. More detailed information on this topic can be found in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19:1 (Spring 1986), 35-39.
Following quote by Bruce R McConkie shows how the Bretheren can make dramatic changes when circumstances change (Prophet received a revelation) “Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.
We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don’t matter any more.”
In my introduction, I told the story of how I got a temple recommend to get married. Up to that time I had been AWOL from the Church for 17 years. My fiance asked me If I would ask the bishop what it would take to get a temple recommend, but said if that didn’t work, she had a family reunion in Tennessee about that time. There were relatives who were ministers who would do the job real cheap. So I got an appointment with the bishop. After an extensive discussion about doubts and worries, he asked we discuss the temple questions one by one. Then he would read the temple questions and ask me to answer with a simple “yes” or “no” with no explanations. Given those two options, you need to decide which answer, however inadequate, best expresses you. Fifteen minutes later he signed the recommend. Then he told me to answer the questions with the state president (who was a lawyer by profession) with those same one word answers.
So for the last 16 years I have separated discussions with the bishop about issues I am struggling with from temple recommend interviews. And when doing that interview, I answer with nothing more than “yes”, “no”, or occassionally an “earnestly trying.” The bishop may be a judge in Zion, but my signature is going on that recommend along with his. And it is my responsibility to answer as honestly as I can, given the limitation on the kind of answers that the Powers That Be (PTB’s) look for. That way, I can approach both issue discussions and interview questions with an untroubled mind, and the PTB’s get the answers they need to issue recommends or not.
