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Did your daughter apply to the University of Utah by chance? It is a great balance between super strict/group think/ ocd Mormon crazy culture BYU and party hard Michigan. UofU also has a great mix of members and non members with the two groups actually interacting and socializing. Just a thought. I have read and read this post and find it very interesting. I have been on the other side of this as the wife not having been told everything in exact detail by my husband. I really don’t think that your wife lied to you when you first questioned her, she waved over her whole upper half, that I assumed would include her mouth which brings into play is oral sex the same as vaginal sex? You can debate that all day long but the real issue is here is you. You feel you got the short end of the stick. That you sacrificed sooooo much to remain a virgin and pure and she “didn’t” according to your definition. Now you are jealous and depressed that you didn’t get to “play” like that all those many years ago. If you are not careful you will easily use this as an excuse to justify all sorts of bad behaviors down the road. I know because I started to use my husband’s past to justify myself in almost any mundane matter. I finally had to ask myself if I was better that Christ? If Christ could forgive him in a matter that was long BEFORE I came into the equation why the hell should I get to be such a jerk. Let it go, you are not a victim and neither was I !! Oh and a side note. I just have to say to all the guys that are quasi ok with polygamy, welcome to the emotional side of it. Since many men can’t understand why modern women would have an issue with polygamy, maybe a guy lamenting over his wife’s betrayal from BEFORE she was with him will open your eyes to what many women feel when the church still teaches and supports polygamy in some forms today.
Sending you and your family prayers and and good wishes this holiday season. So sorry for your loss! Hi it is wonderful that you are getting such amazing insight and help with your endownment questions. I just wanted to make it clear that for women, garment wearing is very much a outward marker/sign of being a “good little lds woman”. You can choose to wear them as you deem correct as others have stated, but truly it will be like a Muslim woman choosing not to wear a head scarf in public. It is very shocking to those in the lds culture to see a woman not covered completely ie wearing something sleeveless or an inch above the knee. We as a culture have turned shoulders,knees and lower legs into sexual objects even on young children and babies. So just be prepared mentally for the gossip and potential shunning if you wear clothing that shows you are not wearing garments. That being said, I choose to wear mine as I see fit along with clothing that makes it pretty clear that when its 100 degrees outside that I am comfortable. Yes I get looks and a few comments but I will tell you what, I enjoy my garments and their symbolism because I determine how and when I wear them. I also always try to wear them to church on Sunday’s and for a few moments most days. I have no issue answering yes to the temple recommend question as I have prayed and feel this is correct for me. Don’t let garments be a block for the endownment just realize the difference between what the culture expects and what you determine with Heavenly Father. Good luck! Well that does explain it Hawkgrrrl. 
SamBe, maybe it’s good that you are not pigeonholed. Perhaps that means you are more versatile in many situations.
^+1000000!!!!!! Exactly why there is coercion in almost all polygamy set ups! Thanks for stating it so simply and well! Ray, To answer your question if I see that dismissive attitude here I have to say that it has gotten a lot better over the years. However on the last polygamy thread it was very, very present. I’m not sure how to show examples without it seeming rude so I will just quote without the name attached I guess would be the correct way to demonstrate what I’m talking about? I do think it is important that I can show how in this situation the dismissive attitude played out.
The thread started out with Ann discussing her daughter’s heart ache over how polygamy was being presented in her institute class.
Eventually it was suggested by a guy that does not believe or want polygamy that,
Quote:I deal with the issue the same way I deal with all the other issues I have – I focus on what I do believe.
Not dismissive at all by itself. However when I and other women pointed out that it was much easier as a guy to not believe in polygamy thanks to how it is taught in today’s church, it turned into very dismissive statements.
Quote:Ann wrote:
Dax wrote:
So sad that to this day we still teach our daughters to accept polygamy in order to be lds.
Yup.
That’s why I posted. It’s my breaking point and I can’t sit by while it happens.
I’m sorry ladies, I have to disagree. I don’t think we (as in the top leadership of the church or as a local ward/stake in my case) teach women or anyone else that they have to accept polygamy. Fact is, we don’t
Then some of the women of the forum presented examples of it still being taught, still causing pain. Those examples illicit ed these responses from the same individual,
Quote:I’m sorry that that is taught there. It is not taught in that way here. I’m sorry this offends you. I also think you you have a belief about the average male in the church that does not stand up – we have no more power than the average woman.
The above is on the edge of the dismissive line of “well I haven’t seen it, and I’m sorry that bothers you since it doesn’t bother me”.
When he was again presented with examples of polygamy being taught and the pain it causes it became full on dismissive.
[quoteAnn wrote:
Of course, no one has to do anything. But we teach that God commanded it and we haven’t taken it off the table. It’s a wretched thing to do to our girls.
Members who publicly call the divinity of Section 132 into question are given “attention” from leaders.
Quote:Do we teach that God commanded it? When was the last time a Q15 said that? It’s in the essays – OK. How many members have read those essays? It’s frequently mentioned here that when people ask in their wards almost no one has and most aren’t even aware they exist.
I’ve only been back from a long hiatus for about a year and a half – but I have yet to hear a lesson or a talk about polygamy, and the few I have heard about eternal marriage or families (I can only remember 2) have made no mention of polygamy. I have also yet to hear Section 132 discussed or referenced and I have been in on no discussions where someone is given attention because they oppose Section 132. Fact is almost everything I hear on the subject is right here and on other boards.
He has been presented with numerous example at this point of polygamy being taught and how it effects teenage girls/women of the church. He is completely dismissing the examples given and goes back to how he hasn’t seen what the women are telling him they have experienced. The above statements completely invalidates the women’s pain and experiences.
From there he negates the women further with,
Quote:I was born a heterosexual male and I can’t change that, and neither does your vitriol. I can’t change that you were born female. And I can’t change your mind and I have no desire to. I can’t change what people in your ward teach or what is taught in any class anywhere – I have no more input than any other rank and file member and being male does not change that. I can’t control your anger at me just because I was born male or hold the priesthood or because I am the prodigal son returned. But I can control me, and while I will show forth as much Christlike love as I can muster at any given time to anyone, I don’t have to listen to hate because of who I am.
I am done with this conversation ladies, to me this thread no longer exists. I have said my piece and my point of view is clearly quite different from yours. I have nothing else to say.
He basically tells the women that because they are disagreeing with him by giving examples that they are attacking him.
He goes on to describe the women’s comments as “vitriol and that the women felt hatred toward him because he was born male,” the women’s posts said nothing against him personally they were about the church were not filled with hate. They simply showed examples to the contrary to his “I haven’t seen that” statements.
I found it interesting that as the women were giving examples, myself included, that we tried numerous times to let the guy know that we were talking about the church in general
BEFOREhe got upset and left the conversation. The kicker and most dismissive comment though was when he went on to say ” I am done with this conversation ladies, to me this thread no longer exists.”
It is the epitome of dismissive! He is refusing to listen or even acknowledge that this issues exist any longer because he doesn’t like how the examples were presented. He completely
invalidatesthe examples and experiences of the women by saying the thread “literally no longer exists”. The issue wasn’t whether he wanted or agreed with polygamy itself which he himself said he doesn’t want. The conflict arose when the women countered with examples his view that polygamy is not still being taught in a way that hurts girls/women and that they should just choose to ignore it like he does. I have no doubt that the individual above is a good person and does not like polygamy and I am sorry that he felt personally attacked. However women need to be able to express and show examples of the pain polygamy without men tacking it as a personal attack.
Ray the conversation above is an example that highlights exactly what I have seen play out numerous times when it comes to issues with gender aspects in the church. Less often at this site vs others.
If the male is very TBM the woman is usually admonished to have more faith,repent and follow her priesthood leaders.
That is the part lds men and many women do not understand, the spiritual and authoritative power imbalance in the church. Have you ever been told as a male or seen another lds man of the church be admonished to repent and follow the
authorityof a lds woman? No, never, it can not happen as only men have the authority to run the church. I have been told myself or seen other women told more times than I can count to have more faith and follow my priesthood leaders. So when lds men tell lds women to ignore a gender issue in the church they are saying that while being a member of the priesthood club that women are not a part of and therefore have no authority. As far as polygamy. Yes I would like PARTS of DC 132 removed the whole utter destruction of Emma/women if they do not practice polygamy part. It truly brings into question for both lds men and women if lds women have the innate right to sexual autonomy. The church could simply say that JS misunderstood the sealing aspects of the temple and the church self corrected over time and those that wish to be married to more than one spouse both male and female God will work out in the next life. That’s it simple, just like the priesthood ban. If the church can admit to a mistake with the ban why can it not admit a mistake with polygamy? Unless something along those lines occur there really is not way to teach polygamy without it on a subconscious level teaching the members of the church both male and female that girls/women are not as valued as the men in the eyes of the Lord.
Hello All, I apologize for posting and then disappearing. I had a family situation come up yesterday. Heber 13, your daughters are very very fortunate to have a father such as yourself. It is wonderful that they can be honest about their feelings and concerns with the church and that you support and encourage them to not stifle their questions. If more men of the church were able to acknowledge and try to understand the pain in their daughters/wives experiences in the church, things could change for the better.
Ann, very good thoughts about how men also feel “supervised” in the church. Ill discuss that further with Rays question. As far as the garment discussions, you are correct, this site has been a great place to discuss the challenges. On other fairly progressive sites I have seen the men literally say garments don’t bother the me/men so the women are just exaggerating their discomfort and issues. When presented with yeast infections and nursing issues, the men would simply say that the “women should have more faith in their challenges and needed to follow their priesthood leaders”. So back to MEN telling women to stop complaining and follow other MEN’S (priesthood leaders) directions.
Roy, great bubble analogy. Unfortunately I have heard your wifes thoughts on poygmay expressed numerous times and settings in the church.
Mom3, I’m sure what you posted was very good as well!
Ray Ill answer your questions in just a moment.
Mom3, It is wonderful that you are able to dismiss polygamy so easily. I also believe that it was simply a man made justification for high ranking lds men to have the “right” for more sexual partners. Will there be people with multiple spouses in heaven?I think so IF that is what they choose and desire. As far as the church though, it is asking a lot of 15-17 year old teenagers in seminary to understand that the church could be wrong on this topic. Especially when will still teach that it is from God, required of lds women to accept and come to terms with and that it may come back in this life or certainly the next. That is not an issue with teaching or correlation, that is what we believe and teach the next generation. Most teens and young adults are still in the black and white phase of thinking with their brain development. That is why even though I can not care about polygamy as an adult, I do not want my daughter (and all of the YM around her) at the age of 15 to get the very clear message that 1. she/women and their desires are not important in the eyes of God and worst 2. the church and God do not believe she/women have the innate right to her/their own sexual autonomy.
I have seen very educated,decent, grown men in their mid thirties discuss how they hope they will be righteous enough in this life to get “really hot wives in the celestial kingdom.” This was not in jest or with any regard to their current wives desires. Thanks to polygamy there is an undercurrent even if only at a subconscious level that women are sexual rewards for righteous lds men.
As adults we can see the nuances, the grey, the freedom of personal revelation and choice. You and I can look at that group of guys and call them misguided and wrong. Youth have a much harder time with that and most will simply follow what their trusted teachers and adults in their life tell them are the reasons for polygamy. If they have any questions or concerns they will simply stuff them inside since faithful and righteous YW/YM would not question the prophets in the first place.
Ann, Please do not delete the thread. Everyone has stated multiple times that we know DJ is not malicious in his comments. Like wise the women’s responses to him have not been malicious or full of “hatred”. It is simply women expressing what the issue of polygamy can do to lds women. If women can not express the truth here what is the point of trying to move things in a better direction at church? How will we help our daughters if every lds male who can not or does not want to hear the pain polygamy caused and still causes to this day removes themselves from the conversation? Being male they can remove themselves with little thought, that is their privilge. Lds women do not have that ability since we were not asked for input about polygamy in the first place. There will be little hope for our daughters if lds men can not understand that they are not being attacked when confronted by women that voice concern over polygamy and its implications for themselves and their daughter.
Dj, I know that you are not coming from a place of malice on this topic. However when you say “that polygamy is not taught that way here and you are sorry this (polygamy) offends you” you simply do not understand what section 132 does to a girl or woman. It IS taught to this day that it is from God and could be reinstated at any moment and is most likely part of the celestial kingdom therefore it is still a threat! So it does kill a part of lds girls or women when they have to silence their inner voice and stifle questions about the horrors of what 132 implies for all lds women. However nicely it is “taught” it still is there and the essays only continue to threaten lds women. So women of the church have to make a choice, accept,ignore, or move away from the church. Most simply choose to ignore it. Imagine if African American men were still taught through the scriptures and essays that their priesthood could be removed at any point in the future because “at times God commanded that they not have it”. How do you think those men would feel? Secure, safe, equal? That their opinion mattered as much as white males? How would those men feel and reconcile that knowledge each day in the church? Welcome to a small part of what lds women are taught and go through. As far as your statement that you have as little power as women in the church that is simply not true. At any point however remote you could still be called into a leadership position. Are you not in the stake or high council in some way at the moment after 10 years of inactivity? A faithful, steady, always attending female will NEVER have that ability. Sorry but even having some voice and influence at the local level is better than no voice or power on ANY level.
DarkJedi, It’s great that you can choose to not to have to believe in polygamy or that you choose not to let it bother you because you haven’t been asked. You are coming from that view point from an absolute place of privilge and power as you are a man in the lds church. Women have zero power in anything the church does officially. Even polygamy was introduced via a threat to Emma’s utter destruction. There was nothing she and the other women could if they wished to remain Lds. So yes many women choose the minimization route when it comes to polygamy in order to continue in the church. It doesn’t change the fact that the threat of polygamy is still sitting in their subconscious ticking away until ” the day the Lord will increase my understanding so I can be humble enough to accept Gods will of polygamy for his daughters,” via my sweet TBM visiting teacher. Really? So sad that to this day we still teach our daughters to accept polygamy in order to be lds.
