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Ann…I agree that women can treat other women badly when it comes to garments and modesty. I’m not sure why that is, another way to judge you are better? Fear that you may lose your husband? Or perhaps fear of promiscuity and unwanted attention? I think that the symbolism and spiritual reminder can be very helpful to some people. It can be very damaging to others. I don’t think things will change though, people seem to be getting more extreme in their lists of what is not modest. I loved your point that true modesty comes from within not by force. Wow, I am very sorry that this is such a trigger for your husband. This is exactly what we have been discussing on the garment and modesty threads. The church ends up giving the message that women are responsible for in part men’s salvation ie “pornographic thoughts” and that a women’s amount of spirituality is directly related to how she presents her body. People are right that what your husband is stating is incorrect, however many in the church culture would completely support and agree with his point of view and assumptions. How can what women wear not be extrapolated to women’s spirituality when talk after talk places so much emphasis on the ever changing church standard of modesty. (When did a shoulder become immodest?) Then throw in the fact that most believe they have covenanted to wear the garment itself and it is easy to see how your husband thinks like this.
Your husband may also feel that your eternal marriage is in danger. However it sounds more along the lines of what Hawkgirl was saying, that he is most upset when others would be able to realize that you were not wearing garments and the ensuing judgments both on you indvidually and as a couple. What you two are not perfect and have issues and questions? Noooooo
Counseling is a good idea. Also if garments are pretty much the only TBM standard that you are modifying emphasize that fact. He may be worried that you are chucking the WoW or are leaving the church.
Perhaps you can find a compromise for the time being, maybe a middle road in which you do not wear garments but wear things that could ALMOST be garment appropriate when out with him. Your husband may not be ready to face the fact that the person he married is changing and that by default he will have to change as well. Try to take into consideration that he will have to mourn the loss of his vision of what he wanted your marriage to be. Imagine if he came home and dramatically altered some aspect of your marriage you thought was concrete and how you might react. I am not saying that his judgments are correct, they are infuriating! However until the church stops linking womens spirituality to what women wear and implying that they are responsible for others thoughts he will culturally feel correct in his beliefs and will need time to adjust. You may also need to compromise more in this area if can not get past his experiences with his mom.
Good luck!!! This is a very tough situation for both of you. Hopefully he will realize the difference between church culture and standards and the true gospel. Hang in there!!
Garments can be boiled down to two things in my opinion.First there is the spiritual purpose of garments which we have been told is an outward sign of our temple covenants, then there is the church trying to control body modesty through garments. As others have stated garments can be a spiritual help for those that benefit from a constant reminder or cherish the symbolism. I am very happy for them, however there are many, many people, especially women for whom there is no spiritual purpose other than blind obedience. For those that fall into the second group garments actually become a stumbling block for feeling the spirit, can increase body image issues and becomes one more way women in particular are judged.
I wish that garments were left for the individual to decide how and when to wear however that will never be the case due to the second point of garments, the church’s control of body modesty. If it is the symbols that are the important part, why can we not stamp them into the inside of our clothes, or have garments be a simple tank top with the symbols? No, then the church could not be in control of what people wear and lets be honest here, it wants to control what WOMEN wear. It goes back to the thread on modesty, the church wants to control what women wear in order to help men and promote chastity for all. As already discussed and agreed upon there is a responsibility of both parties when it comes to modest dress.
The church though uses garments as a way to set/control were that line will be. I think that is why so many women have such a hard time with garments, the church ends up equating spirituality with how a woman’s body is presented and therefore the church needs to control women yet again. It is infuriating for many to be held responsible not only for their individual spirituality but also for that of others. The fact is that men have no idea or simply do not care how uncomfortable, unhygienic, and potentially emotionally damaging garments can be for many, many women. I can understand why Candence feels that garments only purpose is to control. Again there are many that have no issue with garments and gain great spiritual comfort form them. I simply wish that we could be honest about garments two fold purpose and how they can actually cause great personal damage.
Thank you all for your comments and thoughts! They are truly appreciated! It is interesting how so much can depend on the ward itself. We have moved yet again and are currently in a very progressive, educated, open minded ward. It is so refreshing. I think that the biggest difference of this ward is that there is a fantastic mix of seniors, families with all teenagers, just starting out young families, and single individuals. It helps to bring a more balanced perspective to the ward and no one group dominates.
SD, it sounds as if you are raising an amazing daughter! Thank you for your words of advice. I hope that someday my daughter can have as much personal strength and individuality as your daughter. Also it is such an amazing thing that you get to teach and perhaps open a few minds. You are right, I should look at the middle as an opportunity not a lesser faith.
Thank you all again! Thank you also for having a place for those with questions!
Dax
Oh and I forgot to add…you want to talk about submissive and weak? Try having your underwear determined and designed by the opposite sex without any of your input and then link it to your eternal salvation. Just saying. Interesting discussion. I do agree that there is general change in our culture at large not just in the church, good and bad. Inquiring Mind stated that he feels that the church is teaching its men to be weak and submissive, ok, I guess I don’t see that other than the church trying to get ALL its members to conform to the church’s desires and standards. I do not want to say that men are not stunted in their natural personalities within the church, but I do not see specific changes other than more of an emphasis on being equal in your marriage and making decisions together. If that is “feminizing ” the church I’ll take it. My uncle is a very staunch Christian who quotes the bible as to why he makes every decision in his family. It is hilarious because his wife is a VP of a major international bank yet at home she is absolutely submissive and as quite as a mouse since according to her,”women are more gullible than men, look at eve and the serpent.” Perhaps that is were some lds men want to get back to. I may be misinformed but I do not see the church feminizing its men. If anything the priesthood gives a very public and exclusive image to the men of the church. I am glad that the priesthood allows men the ability to be part of something exclusive and bigger than themselves spirituality. Also I have to say that if men are feeling that they are suddenly being taught to be submissive, welcome to the club. A lds girl/women is told from day one that her worth is pretty much limited to how she can serve others. I can not begin to count the number of lessons I’ve been taught that a good lds woman will serve others always. A career or individual path is never discussed or taught. It is ingrained that we will marry a return missionary, have children and then serve them and our ward for the rest of our lives. There is very little emphasis on the indvidual lds woman other than making sure she takes care of herself so she can take care of everyone else.
As far as men not being men anymore, you are correct. Many men have lost the ability to do the things that defined a “man”. Men don’t know how to fix cars/hunt/construction etc, I don’t see how that is feminist women’s fault, wouldn’t that be other men who didn’t teach you those things? Also men use to be able to get into a physical fight to resolve issues, can’t do that anymore because you will be arrested and sued, again not sure how that’s women’s fault. I do agree that boys should be allowed to be rough and tumble and not sit still in class for 8 hours. I think they should know how to handle fights and when to show restraint. Again, things other men need to teach boys, not women. As far as men leaving the church more than women, I would say that women find the potential risk of the eternal salvation of their children to be a huge factor as to why they stay.
Wayfarer …..sorry had to go. You have been given great advice by all! As others have stated the church still is valid even if not literal. Perhaps if she is a mom you could bring it back to how young children see their parents as perfect and all powerful beings. Only as they mature do children realize that parents make mistakes and do not have superhuman powers. The fact that parents are not perfect doesn’t mean they love thier children any less and can not offer great support and advice as the children continue their time on this earth. A faith crisis is a terrifying journey especially in the beginning, stress that does not mean that you have to loose your original destination, you just arrive with adult eyes. That is a good thing. I’m glad she can talk to you about this.
Wayfarer…..so sorry you are going through this! A couple of questions….is this the first time she has discovered truly that you are not Tbm? How old is she and are you in a heavy Mormon area? Those things would certainly affect the equation and advice. Wow..amazing post throughout! Look what happens when you are the one human on the planet without access to a computer. Afterall, thank you for starting this discussion. Interesting that the Jewish Rabbis version of immodesty included walking behind a woman, backs up Orson’s point that we tend to make what we are told is inappropriate immodest and then are shocked and desire it. Also great example about how the world would seem to the man from the veiled world vs a man in US society. Thank you Ray for the perfect synopsis on how and why modesty should be approached ie reason and charity by the church and its people. Thank you also for acknowledging that the burden of these things usually falls on women without our contributing input. Thanks to all the guys that stated that it is ultimately up to the individual to control his actions, but we women can help. As far as things going back to the way it use to be in the lds culture I don’t think that will happen for 5 reasons. I am just talking about lds culture here not the world which could definitely use some more fabric!
1. The men in power do not see the problem with limiting/controlling what women wear without any input from the women themselves in order to protect men. Also why would lds women want or need a say in these things? They should know and accept that this is from the Lord.
2. The cultural shift in the mormon zones has already occurred so therefor it is becoming law by defunct regardless of how ODD one looks in the non lds areas.
3. This extreme shift is in part due to a backlash to current female attire which is extremely immodest quite often. This leads to the “oh i’m scared….quick if we don’t take action then all of our girls will dress like stripper” mentality.
4. GA’s are trying to get a control on boys/men’s porn habits/addictions and figure this will help in some way.
5. This may also be an attempt by the GA’s to control how women view/make the transition to garments. If females have been dressing like grandma’s from childhood I think they are hoping that the garments will not be so completely foreign and shocking to wear.
What the GA’s don’t realize is that as you make lds women’s clothes look more odd against any semblance of societal norm, than as others have stated, it has the potential to make even a shoulder seem like an exotic piece of forbidding fruit. Forget about the self esteem issues women go through having to look so different in society.
This is the analogy I used to explain lds modesty to my father inlwaw, he finaly got it. Lets start off that appropriate lds men’s clothing would be determined by a small group of elderly women who claim to hold the keys for your enternal salvation. These women decide that mens/boys wardrobe should consit only of capri pants and turtle necks in order to help women control thier thoughts. Now dont despair, you can pick any color combination you would like so you shouldnt have any concerns what so ever. Now regardless if you are going to a buisness meeting, the beach, to the gym or a speical event with your wife this will be your attiire if you are a faithful member. Don’t worry about the fact that you will look odd compared to all the other men in the world. Oh and then lets throw in the fact that due to evolution your wife cnan’t help but be attracted to the normal societal males dressed in suits and kahkis. Its ok though because for spiratual reasons your wife tolerates the fact that you aren’t doing it for her anymore and accepts that this is how you will look for the rest of your life. Oh and after all this, don’t forget that you’re rightnouss is going to be judged by other men if your capris are not the correct length because by george if we have to dress that way than all men should, and well women just can’t help themselves.
Good times!!
Any thoughts about the likely hood of the lds standard going back to what it use to be?
Orson…very interesting point of view. Kind of a what comes first the chicken or the egg debate. I never looked at it that way. Wayfarer…I’ll post an intro here soon, sorry should have done that. Have a good weekend all!
SD, thank you for your thoughts and perspective. I agree that women can and should help in this matter. I do have several questions though, who determines what is modest? What does not stimulate you may stimulate another man, does that mean I should be covered to your needs or his? Where is the line drawn? Do I have to be in part or completely responsible for another persons thoughts? I certainly aprreciate that in the US for the most part, a woman’s worth is not based soley on her sexual appeal. I do not want us to become like other places where women are valued only on how they make a man feel, and women have a very short shelf life. That being said, the new church dress standards are having the potential to be a little to extreme. It is to the point that non lds people pick out lds females based simply on the unattractiveness of their clothes. Forget about how odd one looks if not in the “mormon zones”. This inability to dress in even a somewhat normal way causes many women to feel unattractive which in turn leads to many having exaggerated feelings of self righteousness and judgment of others to compensate. How can it not when all the other “brownies” are being picked and you are stuck on the tofu, gluten free, unappealing plate.
SD you stated that unless the brownies were covered and put away completely, you were still distracted. Unless I am completely covered ie veil etc. wont men be distracted by their thoughts on some level? I know this is not what you personally want, desire or mean. However centuries of mistreatment of women have been based on controlling how a woman distracts a man. I acknowledge that women should be helpful and partners to men in this area, but when the church begins to make it a “commandment”or necessary for salvation I get frustrated. I have enough on my plate worrying about myself let alone another individuals thoughts. Thank you for your input though, it has made me appreciate how it could be very hard to be a man in today’s non lds world.
Interesting. Very correct about needing to verify the group! As far as the issue, it is complex. Should the church have the right to say what women (yes I know occasionally this Includes men) wear. Does the church have the right to have standards? How is that enforced for the group? It use to be fine to wear normal shorts and tank tops if not endowed. Personally I get very very tired of having everything I wear including my underwear determined by a group of MEN! Yes I understand the need to not be immodest, but I refuse to be responsible for another persons thoughts. Where does the man’s accountability come into play? This lack of personal responsibility is why woman have to wear veils and burqas around the world, in order to not put “unclean” thoughts into a mans head. Seriously? Well why don’t we go back to the days of balming the victim for what she was wearing! Or hey you know he couldn’t help himself because he was drunk. It seems to me that the whole issue of modesty boils down to trying to control women in order to help men. Ok that is a good reason in part, fine, we can compromise and say no tanks, short skirts or tight shirts in church. Great mission accomplished, men can have a non sexualized environment to focus on the spirit. However, what is worn outside the church should not be so micromanaged. How do men function in the normal non lds world ?
Also for girls/ women it is just one more way to be judged by others. I coach and it is unfortunate to see a group of girls covered to their knees and double layered tshirts trying to move around the court. Then I don’t feel so bad for them when said group of girls pick on and mock the few other lds girls that did not “dress modestly”. Really just a sad frustrating situation for most females these days.
Well holy pigs guts!!! so sorry this is happening to you HSAB! I would simply suggest you follow your heart. You know where you stand with your commitment and desires regarding the Lord. You have already been endowed. Don’t let this unbelievably frustrating situation keep you from being sealed if that is what your heart desires. Heavenly Father knows your struggles and pain. He understands your anger as well, he can handle it! Just don’t throw the Lord away completely in your justified rage. Also I’ve lived all over the country. I guarantee that this would have been handled differently in alot of places, some the same, but many in a much better fashion. Don’t let the fact that you got the short end of the draw for a stake president deter you from the life you want to lead. He is not the individual you need to be focused on in any way at this moment or after you are sealed. I know eaiser said than done but live your life and be at peace with whatever you decide.
