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SamBee…seems we had the same sacrament today. I cringed thinking of the very different type of “families” and personal situations that make up the majority of any ward. Can we stop telling children /people that their less than “ideal” family according to the church means they will be alone and parted from them for eternity? Can we stop asking single adults to endure a life of solitude if they can not find or connect with a temple worthy member? There are a lot of great nonmember people out in the world. Good luck in your goals and hope next Sunday is more about Christ. I have found peace in accepting that I will not do what I do not believe and will do with all my heart the things I do believe about the church/gospel. Cryptic yes. It is a basic shift from doing or not doing things of the church from a place of fear. I now try to interact with the church from a true personal desire to live the gospel and gods plan for me and in helping others along the way. This shift has removed much of the check list of do’s and dont’s of church and has led to me studying and trying to follow Christ. I do not make certain ward members feel safe because I don’t attend church for their approval which makes me much harder to control. Not that I’m out swapping husbands or getting drunk as I feel regardless of my religious choice those things would remove me from moving closer to Christ. It is a harder road but has helped me seperate more of the church vs the gospel. Good luck. You will find your way. Katpzur…women’s shoulders are immodest because lds males have decreed them to be sexual. Then lds women buy into it, teach it to their non-endowed daughters and enforce and police all other lds women around them. That’s not written with malice just why and how these cultural markers for women become “doctrine”.Lds men have a few such as beards and white shirts but women are great at really reaching high in enforcing female conformity. Ann and Hawkgrll are correct. It would not matter if garments are designed by women. “Navel to knee underwear ” (more like collar bone to knee underwear) is not physically functional for women. Most modern women do not wear dresses or skirts 24/7 as when garments were first introduced. At least with a dress or skirt even if almost to the floor air flow could reach the needed areas that today’s pants wearing women have restricted. Knee length underwear causes such moisture problems for women wearing pants. Then add extra layers on top of the garments themselves in order to wear menstaual pads or post delivery pads etc.. Also the pain and discomfort IS worn and seen as a badge of faithfulness by many lds women. I have heard it said many times in RS that garments are a sacrifice “modern women make as we are not asked to practice polygamy at this time.” “That it shows at least we are willing to submit our will to do all the Lord asks of us just like our early sisters.” Uhhh I have to walk out when that train gets rolling along with the,” we must teach our daughters to dress as if in garments at all ages in order to protect the men from impure thoughts.” It’s always interesting to me that garments ALWAYS end up being about policing the modesty of women!! Otherwise why do we not have sleeveless garments? Sleeveless would remove an extra heat inducing layer of clothing and there are no marks to justify them in the first place. ScoutMaster, DevilsAdvocate……men love naked women, great, normal biology. What is not normal is that in today’s world men with the click of a button can view thousands upon thousands of videos of females existing only to fulfill men’s sexual desires. The girls and women in these videos only purpose is for sexual consumption by men. That’s the whole point that men, women and the church miss when discussing whether porn is harmful or not. It isn’t about whether it is harmful to YOU or YOUR marriage….no this whole debate should be is it harmful to the girls and women in porn? (yes there are trafficked boys and men as well) Regardless whether by choice (which is limited) to those being forced into it as a form of modern day slavery, what is the outcome for the individuals in the porn industry? And NO you cant tell through a screen which girl is being forced physically and which is being forced due to her life circumstances.
So the evil isn’t the masturbation ( which without porn I think is healthy and fine) the evil is the porn itself in that it reduces females to nothing more than breathing blow up dolls.
If you put aside for a moment the realities of sexual human trafficking, child and teen sexual slavery, rape porn, gang bangs etc. and say…”oh hey I’m not into that stuff, that’s not me,” you are still viewing and supporting a product that destroys the souls and literal lives of its participants. How do you know that the “barely legal” girl that you are masturbating to isn’t trafficked? Or if you know she isn’t trafficked did you know that most females in porn have been molested or raped at one point in their lives usually as children or young teens? Of course not, why would you want to think about what happened in her life that lead her to the porn industry.
So sorry the fantasy isn’t just the sexual acts. The true fantasy is that good men convince themselves that yes that “girl/slut really wanted it that way and for me to watch it.” Or my favorite, “I’m the consumer/victim here because she is getting paid for me wanting her so she deserves what happens to her.” Because you know guys, every little girl has dreams of one day having to sell and pass her body around for men to use and throw away at will. Every little girl longs to one day be filmed with three men in order to survive. Wake up! You guys are not the victims here because you have sexual desires and there are women that may profit from it in very rare instances. Do you really think that porn is a girl’s vision and dream for herself? That she is happy that her only worth is how many men wack off to her? How about the girls and women that are forced into porn by pimps and organized crime? Nope, just stick with the fantasy that she wants it and is being well paid so you can masturbate with a clear conscious.
If you looked at the girl or woman in the videos as a complete person with a soul, a true valued and loved daughter of God regardless of how she ended up doing porn would it be as easy to watch her be “pounded?”
Who am I kidding….why would men look at a porn star as a cherished and loved beyond all measure daughter of our Heavenly Father?
Thanks Ray for all of your work and efforts with this site! Wouldn’t still be going to church if I hadn’t found it. Thank you to you and the other moderators. Very interesting! I think you may be onto something for many people who experience such trauma in their lives and then have a faith crisis. Just adds further proof that we do not know what is happening with others. Also I hate when we teach abuse victims that they must forgive immediately or they are the sinners. Nooooo each person will come to that choice in their own time, perhaps not even in this life. Wow Shawn that is a big change. I agree with what many have said that polygamy slowly erodes and destroys many lds women from the inside out still to this day. That it truly places women’s eternal worth to not only their husbands but also to Heavenly Father into question. The sad part is that lds women are so conditioned to not question and accept blindly what they are told that many will never admit openly what they feel internally. How can they when lds women of the past were threatened with eternal damnation if they did not comply? Road Runner….the stake fireside about “YW being walking pornogrpahy” is such a dangerous message! An entire stake of YM learned that they are not truly responsible for their own selves and thoughts. That it is a females “fault” if they have natural sexual urges at the most harmless level and that the “girl was asking for it by what she wears” at the most dangerous level. An entire stake of YW heard the message AGAIN that their bodies are naturally bad and sinful in some way (though most can’t express this verbaly yet they just internalize it on some level). Say hello to eating disorders, inability to enjoy sex with future husbands etc.. Oh and don’t forget that they are also responsible for YM/men’s actions/sins. Talk about setting up an entire stake of youth to view a victim of sexual assault as having some responsibility in what happened to her. Even the girl herself will assume that somehow she brought this on herself when we teach our youth that YW can be and are walking pornography that is guys are not responsible for themselves. This is very very dangerous territory for both YW and YM!
+10000 ^to Cwald statement above!! The temple wording needs to be changed but so does the family proc document that most members take as revelation. Until the family proclamation changes to CO-preside there will always be the understanding in lds culuture that lds men make the last and final desicions, even or especially (depending how you are) at home. The temple wording simply is the ultimate justification for how gender issues are set up throughout the church.
My question is who and how is what is considered modest determined? Why are strapless dresses at BYU in the 50’s considered modest even for the endowed, but in 2014 knee caps have somehow become akin to legs with exposed breast when shown? If your chest and butt are covered your ..your sexual reproductive parts are covered period. We need to teach what is appropriate to wear for the situation, not draw lines in the sand on visible “righteous markers”. Why do the lds men decide and determine what lds women are allowed to wear and set that standard? If I turn on brother Bill with my elbows is that next up for coverage to “help him”? It is never ending and women do not have input when it comes to the church changing standards. So now leggings and yoga pants are taboo because they turn you on? Well yes it’s called human sexuality….it’s normal, acknowledge it and move on with your day. DJ, I’m glad the words in the temple do not bother you. To be honest why would they? You are coming from a position of authority and power in the church. You can be inactive for 10 years and still be called to a position of authority overnight. A 100% active,temple recommend woman will ALWAYS have to defer to any male priesthood holder. So yes the words of the temple would not bother you because you already have a seat and a voice at the tabel even after you got up and left the tabel. That is why when women are not even “symbolically” allowed to covenant directly to HF it is the ultimate betrayal and dismissal of women’s eternal worth. Even here in the temple you are not important enough to speak and covenant with HF. It doesn’t matter if you personally don’t believe it “works that way” because it is used to justify so many abuses in marriages and how things function on a ward level for lds women. As far as Dew, claiming we are better to our women in the lds church because women of other faiths have it worse is akin to claiming “hey at least in our religion our male leaders allow us to us anesthesia when we perform female genital mutilation so see how empowered our male religious leaders allow us to be ?” Ughhhh
So it’s back to teaching our YW that their only true power (for good or evil) or individual value is their sexual appeal to men. That the men of the church will decide how THEIR bodies should be covered and place the responsibility of males thoughts and actions on the women of the church. We are teaching the YW that their is something shameful and sinful in their intrinsic personhood simply because of their female form. This is beyond destructive to internalize as girls and women but we continue to threaten and place labels on what is and is not “honoring the priesthood” when it comes to women’s bodies and clothes. We are teaching the exact same message the “world” is to our daughters that their only real value/power is their sexual appeal to men. We just flip it into a “therefore your shameful lust causing bodies must be covered always and if YOU cause me to lust then it’s your fault not mine” guilt trip. Either way the message is learned just the same, you are actually nothing more than your bodies and how they make men feel.
