[DBMormon]

You know what is so strange….. on this board I am the TBM who is advocating Faith. Yet I have the exact same views on the MDD board and there I am an apostate who is destroying the church… sorry was just thinking about that and felt I should post it.

By the way…. There is a distinct difference in how people are treated in the two boards and I just wanted all of you to know that while I am at a different end of the spectrum then many of you, you have been so kind and friendly, and welcoming. I just wanted to say thank you as your Christlike behavior very much shows through. While others see you as the fringe members it is apparent that in some areas you have the gospel mastered!

[DBMormon]

We have been talking about coming from a positive outlook as well…. super good idea and we will likely adhere to it.

[DBMormon]

Heber13 wrote:

wayfarer wrote:

We can accept that JS was inspired, yet understand that his revelations were influenced by prevailing folk wisdom.

…including where Native Americans came from.

I agree Joseph and many other church leaders got this very wrong

here is a thought. Could Joseph of been convinced that all Native Americans descended from Israelites and The Book of Mormon be from a very small group of Israelites blending in with a gigantic already existing culture?

Doesn’t prove anything but there is possibilities in both views.

[DBMormon]

What I am implying is that all the issues you say are clear cut are not….. There is no smoking Gun. Sometimes in our frustration (remember, though it doesn’t make me right… I have been there) I see no issue as a dead ringer for showing the church’s doctrine or theology as false. You could argue that when added up together that it makes a mass amount of difficult issues that the volume alone means the same thing but I think I could give a similar list of things that would be hard to explain in favor of the church’s claims.

I don’t see DNA or anachronisms as a smoking gun though they do pose difficult problems and the answers seem to be a bit of a stretch but even some DNA people outside the church say this in the end won’t prove the BOM as non historical.

Also I agree with Brian – you won’t be in the painful state forever, there is as he says, regardless of what your final conclusions are, a land of OZ waiting for you.

[DBMormon]

Old-Timer wrote:

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My question is must a person in today’s church be forced to put blind faith in certain teachings and traditions if science (especially personal) has learned something different?

Absolutely not – especially since even the apostles haven’t agreed on lots of things over the years.

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Can we still hold TR by believing science so long as they have proved it and putting faith in the rest that has not been proven?

Absolutely. I’m an example of that.

I would ask us to name something Science proves that Mormonism takes a firm opposite stand on in which there is no way to accept science and to also still have faith in the church? I can think of none. As Ray pointed out Church Leaders even disagree on the tough issues and church doctrine doesn’t encompass them.

[DBMormon]

For adults only. Just in the beginning stages of thought. We want to take incorrect attitudes and beliefs and simply offer other ways to see things that still a faithful way to interpret these issues.

For example with SSA. My hope is to show some of the current statements of Church leaders and show that SSA is not a choice or at least doesn’t have to be the what members think is the cause. I want to open their eyes on these subjects so they can then go off and ponder and re evaluate their stances and perhaps have a better ground to then treat others better, along with assist and protect themselves and their families.

[DBMormon]

1.5 hours. We are not going into detail on any one subject but rather to help members think in ways that hadn’t considered before so that they are then better prepared to then go and find resources with specific issues where they may need assistance.

[DBMormon]

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The newest and most troubled of people has something to teach, and those, like yourself, who have solid faith are here, hopefully, to learn as well. We neither preach, evangelize, exhort, nor do we talk in opposition.

sure, I agree. One of my worries is that while I am continually offering my experience as support, some will see me as giving all answers and not receiving any. I have spent the past two weeks exploring SSA and all that goes with it. I have beenreading many of the threads here on various issues and trying to better wrap my head around how all of us being different can also be one.

Please don’t take me as only giving, I am here to learn from you as well. I had a spiritual insight just today that I mentioned in an earlier post.

[DBMormon]

Nishka wrote:

I wish Joseph Smith was alive to answer these questions:

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1. Is there a difference between the feeling associated with the Holy Ghost and the Light of Christ?

yes, one is what we call conscience and gently nudges us to do right…. the other testifies, comforts, and warns

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2. Why have all “prophet, seers, and revelators” been silent since the death of Joseph Smith? (and I mean the type of revelations that Joseph received: books, revelations to friends, and answers to questions that are received and recorded as revelations )?

Joseph was the main prophet of a dispensation. To me that means he puts the major revelations forward and organizes and those afterward mainly maintain and keep it moving forward.

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3. Is there a line between those behaviors we can choose to avoid (don’t lie, don’t be envious, avoid pride, be unselfish, sacrifice, kindness) and those, many would argue, we cannot chose to avoid (homosexuality, ADHD, Bi-Polar, depression)?

Some things are sin that we bring upon ourself, other are weaknesses that god gave us Ether 12:27

Paul had a thorn in the flesh…. so do we.

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4. Why don’t we follow King Benjamin’s teachings that church leaders should not be paid for their services as church leaders?

I want the 12 and the first presidency focused on the work full-time. While they should not become wealthy through the church, they should be paid. The scriptures also call on God servants to rely on the people at times for sustance.

Also who put food on King Benjamin’s table? roof over his head? clothes on his back? Did he sell barley to support his house payment…. The implication by his words is no-one should get rich nor free load off the church and it’s members

Ex: Joseph Smith certainly was supported by the church and it’s members. Who fed, housed, clothed Peter and the 12 when they were in strange lands preaching? While modest the church must sustain it’s full time servants.

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5. Why do Book of Mormon characters often speak about the what the Lord “said” or “spoke” to them and we are left with a “study it out” and you will “feel” what is right approach?

Does the Lord speaking always have to be face to face. I have had the Lord speak to me multiple times as I have served as Bishop and yet I have never heard his actual voice nor saw his face

How do you answer?

[DBMormon]

my two cents on the subject….

We need recognizeable faithful members to speak up and begin setting a tone of change in our rhetoric.

Rather then Mormonstories or NOM you need a faithful member with a stalwart testimony on a large public forum to speak up in a way that captures the faithful audience the way Mormonstories captures the middlewayer.

People need to see that their treatment of SSA individuals as second class citizens is comparable to treatment of african americans in the 50’s and earlier. I see that now. It hit me tonight hard in my face. I still think the church has a right to declare doctrine excluding certain behaviors but that has not a thing to do with how we treat each individual as a human being and recognize their worth before God.

TBM need to hear some human truths and while I won’t push the envelope would come best from church leaders (Bishops on up) speaking directly and putting destructive lore to rest by speaking plainly.

[DBMormon]

I got your humor, but saw a teaching moment for others. I was only implying that there are no two people in the church who all believe the same thing. We are all heretics in reality. Many of the people here have felt alone in the church sensing they are different or outside the perception of what a Mormon has to be. Just letting people know we are all different, so no need to be an outsider. Someone has to be pioneer

[DBMormon]

For me – I am a Teryl Givens Mormon. By that I mean If you listen to his Mormonstories interview and listen to part 3. That defines my view of Mormonism. I so used to be a Bruce R McConkie. Joseph Fielding Smith Mormon…. and now it is hard to realize how different my viewpoint is from where it was.

http://mormonstories.org/terryl-givens-an-approach-to-thoughtful-honest-and-faithful-mormonism/

[DBMormon]

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The point of all this is a plea for further understanding and a question for church leadership:

Can we stay when we are doing the best we can with what we have to work with? …Even when our view of things looks significantly different that the view of the broader membership?

Being asked to leave would literally wreck my life, not even considering the eternities; yet while I stay I need to be authentic on some level – and not simply hold up a puppet face as I sit in the pew. To me my views are in line with the Gospel, but I will disagree on some fine points with many members. Does that mean I am a threat to them?

I feel like the church leadership has come a long way since the September 6. I am hopeful they have learned that the tent needs to be bigger within bounds that have to exist. I think it will take a generation or two for lay members to catch up. So please be authentic as I feel unless one as a vendetta against the church authentic should be accepted.

[DBMormon]

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I find it takes inner strength to be the kind of Mormon I feel I need to be, and realize others won’t like it. They’ll always think I need to do more, and they’ll praise me the more I obey unquestioningly. I just have to follow SilentDawning’s example and set boundaries without sending vibes that people think I’m totally lost.

I taught a lesson a couple months ago on the Word Of Wisdom. I told those who wanted to spell out everything that they were being to stringent. Ex: telling other ward members not to eat meat, suggesting all members eat a certain diet, telling members that if they use alcohol in their cooking, or drink caffinated soda that they are disobeying God. I told these people to knock it off. Then I talked about what the Word of Wisdom was and what the letter of the law was and that members would be blessed as they followed section 89 as close as the spirit directed them.

People on both sides were mad at me. You could see it. Those who felt I advocated too strongly were furious and those who felt I had not interpreted it strong enough were furious. I ended by discussing Moroni 7 and I believe verse 46 where God says the way to judge is by the spirit and what brings you closer to Christ.

No-one liked me that day but perhaps a half dozen. But so be it, I had taught truth and stood up for what the spirit had whispered. Now it was up to them to ponder and adjust false conceptions and false standards….. just as I have done and continue to do with SSA, what is Doctrine, How to handle differences in general within the church… let the Holy Spirit guide.

Don’t worry about what others think, it is not their right to judge

[DBMormon]

SilentDawning wrote:

I’m interested in your version of what the core principles are…

True Principles

– For me the Book of Mormon is literally what it claims to be

– Joseph had a first Vison seeing the divine and was called to restore the church

– The LDS church has authority and if God chooses to speak to the world it will do so through the current prophet

– The pure doctrine of Christ is faith, repentance, baptism by immersion, laying on of hands for the gift of the holy ghost

– Temple ordinances are needed and essential

– Being in the church in mortality does not give one an advantage in terms of salvation but does act as a tool to help serve and protect it’s members from all the negative life throws at us

– We do not earn salvation, we are saved by the merits, mercy, and grace of God though our works assist us in progression and they help us show our appreciation for God’s love.

– Christ was real and made a real atonement and paid the price for our sin.

I am sure there is more but this is a good solid list to frame how I see things

[Author]

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