[DBMormon]

Brian Johnston wrote:

Everyone is a heretic compared to everyone else.

Or to put it in more positive language — we are all doing the best we can with what we find. And each one of us is different.

Absolutely, I bet Elder Holland hold some beliefs or thoughts that differ from Elder Ballard. There is no perfect way of being a TBM or a perfect way to be a middlewayer…. your right all are different

[DBMormon]

cwald wrote:

So… What do you see in the near future Ray? Validation or extermination? Surety the church cannot continue to pretend like john dehlin doesn’t exist indefinitely?

Depends on how big of a tent they want to allow. There is no right or wrong answer. They have a right to determine the rules and regulations of the church. If they are willing to allow a wide range of belief and those who are outside the standard line to share their position with other TBM’s. Is their more benefit for the middlewayers in allowing this over how many TBM’s it hurts the testimony of. That is the question at hand. Me personally, I am all for Middlewayers being encompassed in the tent of faithful LDS and received in a way that they are not looked down upon, as long as they individually can support the Doctrine of Christ, and other truths as the church stands behind and proclaims and not look to teach gospel hobbies, speculation, or other fringe ideas that sway people their way. Once one does that it is apostacy and should be handled on a case by case basis

[DBMormon]

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ah, so you are a heretic like the rest of us

I don’t think so. I think Elder Christofferson’s last conference talk puts him and other leaders in the same group as well. While they likely won’t throw anyone under a bus, they realize too many of us lay members are missing the mark

[DBMormon]

would it help if you had a bridge builder like me who could be a go between in understanding both the orthodoxy and also the flexibility our faith at it’s roots gives us?

For example once one sees the progression the church has made over time in it’s tone and treatment of SSA individuals they orthodox member then has to confront the non-linear thinking and has to make changes to their position. This can be done on multiple issues but must come from one they see as faithful and reasonable. Even if you are both they notion is not in agreement. they need a bridgebuilder from my perspective. They need a faithful orthodox member to tell them it is ok to think differently and still be a member of the church

[DBMormon]

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Bishop. Can you explain or justify why the professional paid apoligists for church express so much anger and fear and loathing for those of us who praise John’s work, and truly believe on a middle way to Mormonism?

First CWALD do me a huge favor, it would mean the world to me. From now on please call me Bill, DB, DBMORMON, ect.., as I am not your Bishop (though I think we would be great friends if in the same ward), nor Am I wanting to use my title to give me more weight to my opinions. I do acknowledge though they my experience in the calling may offer additonal ways to see things or experiences to share, it does not make my opinion more or less valid. Thanks!! While being Bishop is part of my story, it is not who I am. It doesn’t define me.

In regards to your question:

Most people on the MDD board whose methods I detest are not paid apoligists. They are wannabe apoligists who are always looking to increase their rep points and not win hearts. That said, the Men on there who have at least contrinuted to LDS publications (brant Gardner, Kevin Christensen, Benjamin McGuire, ext..) have all been kind and empathetic and supportive. When they did think I crossed a line they told me so respectively. Now there are 3-5 individuals who are not known outside the board who are unchristlike in their approach and most of them don’t even share a real name, wonder why? Those folks give apoligetics on that board a bad name. Now I hear a lot about Dan Peterson and others like him. But I have not experienced any of that personally so I feel unqualified to speak about them. In my limited interaction I felt some of the individuals in that circle are too anxious to share their side of the story when they perceive they are being wronged, but I have been known to do the same… so no added comment there either.

I think they frown on John’s work because by offering a middle way it takes away on some level a desire to see the church in the way the church itself is asking to be seen. In other words if the Church is true in the way it claims, then by saying a middle way is valid, that idea creates a plateau where one may no longer desire to try and see the church as it is asking to be seen and one may settle seeing it as it fits best to them. If progression is the ultimate goal, then the same is true in regards to truth and belief. Now the kicker is I am not judge on which direction is the true pursuit of truth and correct belief and each of us must follow the spirit and decide and none of us in and out of the church will know for sure until we exit this life.

[DBMormon]

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In order to cope I a) don’t hold a TR b) don’t pay tithing for the time being c) when I get asked to take on a calling, I insist that they agree to release me within two weeks of my indicating the calling isn’t working for me anymore and d) I have put myself on my own clock. What I think — I repeat what I THINK about anything the prophet or anyone says is now vitally important, and I only consider callings inspired if both the person issuing the call, and myself personally believe it’s inspired. And that means I need spiritual confirmations of all callings if I feel its important to have one.

I also do not do certain things that cause me angst — moving people, is one, and I’m very discriminating about how I use my time in church pursuits. No more time wasters or driving to meetings which have unannounced agendas. No more activation efforts unless I feel a strong prompting to do so.

I teach classes and so far have found ways of challenging the things in the manual without offending anymore, often by using other church doctrine or statements by others to temper some of the destructive beliefs the church often promulgates. This is engaging for me and strangely, has been well received by the quorum. Strange.

two points you make are very valid.

1.) You insinuate you do not do anything uncomfortable until the spirit bear witness that it is of God.

D&C 50

22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.

23 And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.

Moroni 10:3-5

Moroni 7:16-17

“I admire men and women who have developed the questing spirit, who are unafraid of new ideas as stepping stones to progress. We should, of course, respect the opinions of others, but we should also be unafraid to dissent – if we are informed. Thoughts and expressions compete in the marketplace of thought, and in that competition truth emerges triumphant. Only error fears freedom of expression. . . This free exchange of ideas is not to be deplored as long as men and women remain humble and teachable. Neither fear of consequence or any kind of coercion should ever be used to secure uniformity of thought in the church. People should express their problems and opinions and be unafraid to think without fear of ill consequences. . . . We must preserve the freedom of the mind in the church and resist all efforts to suppress it.” (Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life: The Memoirs of Hugh B. Brown, ed. Edwin B. Firmage (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1988), 137-39; Hugh B. Brown, “An Eternal Quest—Freedom of the Mind,” a speech delivered at Brigham Young University, 13 May 1969, in Speeches of the Year (Provo, UT): Brigham Young University Press, 1969); rpt. In Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 17 (Spring 1984): 77-83)

I think while there is commnets by leaders to hear and obey, there are also plenty of speaking of your right to recive a spiritual confirmation and you are responsible to follow the Holy Ghost and not every word that proceedth out of the mouth of his servants… when they are not speaking by the Holy Ghost. This is not easy and should not be an excuse for making your own path but is at it’s root a true principle

2.) you felt it was strange. I didn’t think it was. I would be willing to bet the correlation and writing committee write primarly from and for a stage 3 believer. That isn’t wrong, though it leaves those in stage 4 and 5 struggling with the black/white of taught principles. I think your offering other ways to see things (within bounds) is a great way to help the class see gray areas and to open their minds slowly to other ways to see things. I would love to be in your class.

If we taught stage 4 and 5 concepts, the stage 3 folks would struggle. If we teach stage 3 concepts, higher stage people struggle. There is no right or wrong and I think the Lord offers enough stage 4 and 5 thinkers a way to see the gray area and the deeper principles and lessons. Plus if it isagreed that most people are in stage 3 of faith, then it would be natural for those writing the manuals to be in stage 3, which then means it would be natural that they would push back against higher reasoning and thinking, which also means the lesson they write will be stage 3 concepts as well. It is a circle and we want to pass blame when it isn’t really fair.

Anyway follow the spirit and challenge incorrect assumptions but do so in a faithful manner and you should be fine.

good post

[DBMormon]

embwbam wrote:

Missionary work doesn’t even make sense from a TBM perspective, unless it’s centered around how it might help a person in this life. If everyone gets a chance later, it’s not about salvation at all, it’s about bring people the blessings of the gospel, whatever those might be.

So, while I’m not fired about missionary work myself, I would try to get people to think about how the gospel has improved their lives. For me, it’s brought me a wonderful wife and kids I would have had later or not at all without it.

Other people could definitely benefit immediately from the church’s teachings on family focus. So, that’s what I would share.

What makes the gospel worth it for you? Think about that and ask your class to think about the same?

I like this a lot and see this in the similar manner. Joining the Church for the sake of joining the church has no value in this life as you pointed out as we could all receive ordinances in the after life and it makes no sense that .02% of the population get some gift that increases their value or chance to get back… that doesn’t make sense to me. The value of the gospel is if it affords you more peace, shields you from some major disappointments you would have had otherwise, and gives you more protection over what you would experience out of the church” God finds his joy out of our personal growth and our joy, this is why he wants us in the church.

[DBMormon]

Ciasiab wrote:

One of the things that helped me most was Terryl Given’s interview on Mormon Stories. His testimony on mormon scholars testify http://mormonscholarstestify.org/1904/terryl-l-givens” class=”bbcode_url”>http://mormonscholarstestify.org/1904/terryl-l-givens really speaks to my soul. In part he says:

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In the course of my spiritual pilgrimage, my innate capacity for doubt led me to the insight that faith is a choice. That the call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief, for only in these conditions of equilibrium and balance, equally “enticed by the one or the other,” is my heart truly free to choose belief or cynicism, faith or faithlessness. Under these conditions, what I choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who I am and what I love. I choose to affirm that truthfulness of the Restored Gospel for five principal reasons.

1. Joseph Smith revealed the God I am most irresistibly drawn to worship.

2. He gave the only account of moral agency that to my mind can justify the horrific costs of our mortal probation.

3. He provided a story of the soul’s origin and destiny that resonates with the truth and the appeal of cosmic poetry.

4. The fruits of the gospel are real and discernible.

5. The restoration is generous in its embrace.

I’ve come to appreciate that faith really is a choice. I don’t know that Gospel is true, but I do know that having lived the precepts of the gospel has blessed my life. I don’t know that the book of Mormon is an accurate representation of real people, but I find meaning in it’s pages. Like Givens I am drawn to a God who allows us to become as he is, weeps with us, and is waiting to give us all that we are willing to receive.

I cling to that sound of hope and I don’t think that doubt will leave me in this life. So yes I “choose to live in a world where God speaks to man.”

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How do you determine the correct course in which to put your faith when the evidence points that it may not be true

For me it doesn’t matter. I reject many things the church teaches that are probably not true (young earth, global flood, tea and coffee are bad, committed homosexual partnerships pose a threat to marriage etc.). Other things are harder – Joseph’s Smith’s behavior at times and the truthfulness of the book of Mormon. If you stare long enough, you’ll find pious fraud likely makes up most of the bible. To me it doesn’t matter. Maybe it’s not true, but it provides joy and meaning in my life so I live as if it was. If I come across something that does not pass the “men are that they might have joy” test I reject that thing.

Just my two cents and sorry if it makes no sense.

While I would disagree with you in a few places, your answer really resonated with me. great post

[DBMormon]

Quote:

I do have great interest in hearing the perspective of those who have faced similar “dark nights” and have found peace and a way to either reconcile the difficulties they have found, or make it work for them. This is what I personally am searching for- How do you make it work for you? How do you resolve the standard methods discussed in church for finding truth and it’s uncanny resemblance to confirmation bias? How do you make sense of spiritual experiences in relative terms and translate that to absolute terms as the Church and the scriptures say you can/should? How do you determine the correct course in which to put your faith (belief in things that are not seen but are TRUE) when the evidence points that it may not be true? In many ways this seems like circular reasoning. Does it boil down to you “choosing to live in a world where God speaks to man”? In a Church that is so closely tied to history and a literality of spiritual/physical events- how do you hold these paradoxical ideas at the same time?

There was a time when I wanted to ask to be released from a major calling. I have had moments of feeling like there is no way this all fits in a way to have the church being true be the outcome. I have pondered how to write my exit letter and wondered what I would do to keep my spirituality if I left the church. I thought maybe I would stay a member but simply not pay tithing and stay in the background….. I thought maybe I would find a good non-affilated small church and that would let me continue to worship the christ without belonging to a major christian denomination. I cried, I worried, I stressed. Each day feeling like I was on the edge of some personal tragedy. My brain thinking through every possible outcome and what it meant for my wife, my children, my friends in the church…… Trust me Faith Crisis sucks. I know it firsthand.

I knew that what ever choice I made I couldn’t fake it. I decided some time ago, that whatever my issues were, I would be honest in my approach. I wrote one general authority and talked to another. I talked to a leader in my stake. I told my wife what was going on in my head and what I was contemplating. Outside of the spiritual experiences I have had, I logically came to the conclusion the church wasn’t true. For me the spiritual experiences and my cognitive reasoning were two very different separate issues. That may sound odd, but what I mean is that I had spiritual experiences and they gave me a spiritual foundation for believing the church was what it said it was, but I also knew in my study and research that it was very likely the church was not what it said. This spiritual aspect to this conflict is what kept me holding on. I felt the spiritual experiences should carry as much weight as my knowledge and study have. By spiritual experiences I do not mean the general feel-good feelings the church gives us that some insist is the Holy Ghost. Rather, very specific profound experiences.

This went on for about two years with about 9 months being absolute agony. I was getting closer and closer to a decision to do something other then continue on as a TBM. Then the answers came one after the other. First a revelation. I was given an experience that was very specific to my situation. It was very profound. It was symbolic but it clearly explained where I was heading, Where I will not end up by going down this road, and that this missed destination was going to be terribly sad and painful for everyone I loved including myself. I also knew that God wanted me to be at this destination. It was clear in this experience that the destination involved being in the church and that the church was his vehicle for eternal salvation at least in regards to me, and my salvation.

That was the first experience.

Then once this spiritual event happened, I knew there had to be another way to reconcile my cognitive difficulties with my perceived issues of the church’s historical and theological failings.

In the middle of working this out in my mind, I went onto a LDS discussion board where I could under at least a little anonymity broadcast my anger and my thoughts. Sometimes this was done with a lot of hostility on my end and it was returned quickly. While many were empathetic and addressed my rants with emotional support or answers that were kind and thoughtful, many of them did not understand what I needed and merely addressed my anger with retaliation. They didn’t see the hurt and only sought to defend their church. I was accused of being a troll, a wolf in sheep’s clothing, and an apostate member of the church. Rather then deal with my hurt and try to help me, the way Christ would have, they instead choose to act in defense. While I completely understand the what and why now, then it only fueled my frustration and anger. Finally I had, had it. Every post of mine was sarcastic and used the church to try and corner them by their own words. They didn’t know it but were making things worse. Just when I needed Members of the church to put their arm around me and tell me they loved me no matter what and that they were there to help, much of what I got was the opposite of what I needed. In the midst of my tirade in a discussion of debating why the church withholds information and taking a very critical stance in that debate, a member of the discussion board sent me a private message. I post it here with his permission. My question was how do all the apoligists and faithful supporters ignore all the elephants in the room (problems of the church)

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There are not problems as you characterize them and the elephants in the room are not the baby elephants you keep hoping are going to trumpet an answer. In the very back corner is a humongous, Massive bull elephant who is sitting on his side, resting from all of the bellowing he has been doing hoping to get the attention over the mass of baby elephants making all the racket. He is obscured from your view because all you keep seeing are the baby elephants covering him from view.

There is a work underfoot that you do not grasp yet. It seems to you to be a work to hide and protect the church. Completely, incorrect. We can flush these thoughts out further if we need to but when you think of Bruce R. McConkie’s take on the 10 virgins and that they represent the members and that half will fall away, what do you think is going to separate the saints from one another. We do love each other and as a group are very tolerant when appropriate, but what is going to drive a wedge between the members to push them a part.

Faith is the big Elephant lying on its side resting. The 50 % that fall away are those who do not realize that theology is built upon a requirement of faith. Without it none can please God. One can never overcome the theological demands of faith by an appeal to empirical proof. They are at odds. The one destroy the other. Proof will only leave you weak and unable to stand when stand you must. The one leads to life eternal the other leaves one unable to call upon God when the time is ripe for destruction. The work that is underfoot is the sifting of the wheat from the dross.

In the coming days, I have no clue how long, but soon enough I am sure, the truths of the history of the church will save no lives. The only thing that will is in those, that live, breath, feel in their hearts and souls the faith that can stand this moment – the beginning onslaught against the church. It is the same ideological battle that pulled the third of heaven to follow Satan. It will escalate form here to becoming a physical battle and the world will be arrayed against us – It will take powerful faith, perhaps Enochian faith to turn the tides against those that would destroy the members of the church. You are only in the beginning stages of the battle of the war of words and ideals and you are already falling prey to the efforts. What will you do when destruction is between you and the powers of heaven to forestall.

Faith – so few understand it is a genuine power. Sometimes I think that members are hell-bent on avoiding, denying, and fleeing away from the opportunities to exercise faith – the pwer tht holds worlds in their orbits and enables the creative efforts. We lip service it and then ignore it constantly. This day is a blessing to you. You are being tossed and torn and beaten and abused in the crucible of faith. The anxiety you feel is because you are slowly feeling the heat of the flames that will prepare some and destroy others.

You acknowledge the need for faith but it has not impressed upon your soul the power of what faith really is. Again I ask, what did you think it would look like when we were in the middle of the sifting. IT LOOKS LIKE WHAT YOU ARE SEEING. It is painful, until the faith provides the healing and there is no faith in questioning the motives of the church. They know exactly what is happening and they are stemming it as best they can within the boundaries of agency, and teaching correct principle. I’m not going to expand further, I’ll see where this takes you.

So now I had the spiritual experience, then I had this message helping me to understand why the church has hiccups and events occur within the church that are difficult to handle or to buy into. This message was personal to me. It was as if God penned it himself, it was what I needed.

That night I was reading a “Neal A Maxwell Institute” paper about the treatment of a talk a LDS leader had given and the way he was criticized for it. I thought the critic’s methods were not honorable or fair. Then it hit me, they were the exact methods I had used on this discussion board. It was a second witness to me of my behavior not being what My Heavenly Father would prefer. My feelings were real, my hurt was real, my thoughts and questions were fair by man’s reasoning. But between me and my Father in Heaven, he expected better of me.

Something happened within me at this time. I was able to separate the pure gospel and what I saw as real truth within the restoration and weed out all the crap. Even if the crap was pushed by a leader of the church as doctrine and truth, I was able to see it as “man made” and choose to ignore it. By this I mean that people within the church have made giant mistakes.

The guilt put on some who have sinned, saying SSA is a choice, evolution as a heresy, black skin is a curse, throwing any dissenter out of the church… ect, ect, ect…

All bologna in my mind and yet The gospel still contained complete truth once I was able to get rid of the junk. Some will say the junk makes the church false… to me it doesn’t. It only proves humans will always fall short of God’s expectations and they will make mistakes and it will be terribly messy.

I could recognize the mistakes that Bruce R. McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith taught as truth and yet not throw them out as special witnesses of Christ called of God.

If one is unwilling to to accept this much weakness in it’s leaders, one will be disappointed with religion in any of it’s facets and directions. When I read the Old Testament and New Testament, where only the best and most important stories got saved, I still find way too much weakness in God’s servants. For example Peter refusing to allow gentiles to join the church as he felt the gospel wasn’t for them…. ring any bells?….. any similarities in our dispensation?

Now in our time, every experience is recorded, every sermon available to any person with access to the internet, every time these men go to a store or an event, they could be recorded by phones or other devices… like no other dispensation, these men are under a microscope and yet unlike the meridian of time we do not accept them like Paul having “thorns in the Flesh” or Nephi’s admission of terrible sins.

In conclusion we sometimes have to take a step back and ask “while the way I see things seems fair and correct, is there more I don’t see that I could try to understand?”

We each have to follow our heart but maybe, just maybe, God is whispering things our heart is missing.

[DBMormon]

I will write something up, hopefully this evening.

[DBMormon]

Quote:

Welcome to StayLDS. Personally, I would be interested in hearing which main principles and doctrines you think are true and which ideas we hear in the Church you think are false doctrines and standards, speculation, urban legends, etc. Even though I don’t believe very much of what I hear at church or in Church publications I think Church leaders could still make some major improvements without necessarily having to completely overhaul most of the traditional doctrines. For example, with the 3 hour block and all the different callings and classes we have now I’m not sure how much of a doctrinal basis there really is for this setup. Why not do a 2 hour block instead and reduce the number of different classes?

My opinion only

Truth = Doctrine of Christ = Faith, repentance, baptism by immersion, Gift of the Holy Ghost, enduring to the end, temple ordiances needed. Book of mormon based on real angels, real plates, a real first vision. Church has authority but that does not mean it has all the answers as article of faith #9 still implies there is always more to learn and new info to discover.

False things that get promulgated as truth = age of the earth, evolution is a heresy, SSA is a choice, only men can give opening prayers in sacrament meeting, men have to be the concluding speaker, Prophets + apostles must be obeyed or followed blindly, works earn salvation, ect… all of theses thing that get shared in talks and lessons that are not doctrine but get adopted as truth by the culture at large.

[DBMormon]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

Wow, what a great story! If you are living the law of chastity, merely “being” gay shouldn’t prevent you, although with 32,000 bishops in the world, they can’t all be winners. How do you feel about the other TR interview questions? Do you have other misgivings?

I agree Hawkgrrrl, his SSA should not prevent him from the endowment. Unfortunatly many bishops know nothing of Mitch Mayne or Josh Johanson and rather then recognize the church’s current stance they hold to old policies/ dogma’s unknowingly. I would talk to him still and pray he is versed in current church policy.

My guess is 95 % of Bishops would treat this situation in a way that is way better then your anticipating

[DBMormon]

Wayfarer, to some degree I’ll agree. I do think way too many LDS leave the church or some non-memebrs who otherwise would have been interested never take it seriously because of the critical material that is nonsense and could be easily explained. I also agree we ought to find ways to be able to share multiple viewpoints on most issues and let people find truth, but realistically, no church or faith does that.

[DBMormon]

Thank you very much. John is a great interviewer, it comes very natural to him. He handling makes the interview go well.

[DBMormon]

I agree about hijacking this thread. so start a thread and one item at a time tell me specifically what issue is most difficult to ignore and why. I will try to share how I have thought through it and see where it goes. use your strongest point first so that we are not beating around the bush and please give enough detail so that I understand exactly why it poses a problem.

Have an awesome evening

[Author]

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