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Old-Timer wrote:
I have had a fair number of experiences that I personally view as miraculous, and a few that I believe would be hard to explain as anything but divine intervention. However, they generally have not occurred in a way that leads me to take credit (in a sense) for being more “worthy” or “righteous” than normal and deserving them when they happened.
I struggle with a number of things that are considered quite basic to Mormon living. Daily prayer – daily scripture study – HT – etc. I really suck at some of these things. However, I don’t struggle with having a prayer in my heart continually – or contemplating the scriptures – or helping others – etc. I just stink at the checklist stuff.
So, to answer your question, I do believe there are distinct and undeniable blessings in my life as a result of something, but I don’t know exactly what that something is. Perhaps it’s no more than being blessed for trying to do my best – much more qualitative than quantifiable.
WOW… I read this and thought I wrote it. I feel so unworthy of all the blessings I have gotten putting in the minimal effort in that I do when so many are pleading and striving for the same kind of answers and they seem not to come. Man it makes my heart ache thinking about it. To my mortal mind it seems unfair but like Nephi “nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted”
I believe there is one truth, but that truth is difficult to dicern and is gained in increments along the journey. I also think God doesn’t give it all at once on purpose and so it is metted out here a little, there a little and seems to imply God is very hesitant to put on the backs of his children more truth then they are prepared for or will be held accountable to. http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1980/10/the-sustaining-of-church-officers?lang=eng&media=video good example of how to handle these.
also this board is not about apoligetics. I want to sustain that rule. I absolutely understand that others look at the same evidence and say no way… the church can’t be true. I feel I am intelligent, well spoken, very well read, take in all the info I can and I am willing if the preponderance of evidence leads me out of belief to take it but I see plenty of physical evidence that gives room for belief. I also add that to my spiritual evidence and I am left to believe. You won’t get me saying the evidence has to lead to this answer, but am happy to share what I think and more importantly maybe, how I think.
Quote:I am hopefully not asking you to re-explain, but from your experience, given that you seem to be aware of the issues of historicity, DNA, anachronisms, etc, how do YOU PERSONALLY reconcile these things?
Some of these are a stretch
Historicity – I believe the Book of Mormon is what it says it is. I do not have to believe it is what any other leaders have said it is. In other words I do not have to accept the hill where the plates were was “the” Hill Cumorah as in my mind it wasn’t. Joseph and others were reading something in the text that wasn’t there. Same with all Indians are lamanites. Not there.
DNA – Some non-LDS DNA researchers agree that this is not a way to prove the BOM false, as too many unknowns. What was Lehi’s and Ishmael’s DNA? If they were a small group entering a much larger culture what DNA would have survived if any. There also seems to be some anomalies of halpogroup X found in a couple of native American tribes. – yet to be decided in my mind?
Anachronisms – I think if we are honest w would agree that as time has passed more and more of these have been eliminated from the Anachronsim list. I know it sounds like apologetics but there is a lot of area in Mesoamerica that is unknown more importantly unresearched. I just think there is a lot we don’t know yet. Are there some items that really confound us if we take the BOM literally? Absolutely, but if the list has gotten smaller of things that don’t have any fit, then I have to expect it new things will be discovered and the list will continue to shrink.
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Are you relying on a spiritual witness to know the truthfulness and reality of them?I have had a handful and I am only counting those that I would qualify as dramatic (no burning bosom counted here) One on one I am happy to share perhaps but at least know these are ones not easily explained.
Quote:Is it sufficient that these are the mysteries of God and we can’t know all His ways?
Correct We can only know spiritual things by the spirit.
Quote:Are you basing this on the idea that there is enough ambiguity on each side of the argument that it is equally probable either way? Not equally, but not lopsided either. If one allows for supernatural phenomena then I think there is room on both sides. I would say the same for most faiths
This is a sincere request, I would like to find a way to be able to be reconciled of things that appear to have direct negative evidence. I can’t put it back on the shelf. It is very difficult to find meaningful value in transubstantiating literal to non-literal with the same level of relevance.
Email me your phone # and I would be happy to call you and better explain how I think as these need more of a detailed answer then I can write.
Quote:BUT, that’s not true for me. So much of my life is tied up in the church that it’s almost definitely better for me to remain involved here instead of seeking elsewhere. So I guess I’m saying that there’s still real value in the church even after I’ve decided those things probably aren’t literally true.
agreed, What I was trying to say is that a church here by be better for John and the one over there for sally but that God didn’t have a best church for everyone if we come to the decision there is no generally “true” church for everyone.
so maybe you know me better 1.) let me know if you think I am coming off offensive. You won’t offend me unless I feel someone is attacking me on purpose. People can dissagree with me and life is good. CWALD is a good example. Him and I differ dramatically on our views but our conversation has been very friendly on the MDD board. Please tell me if you feel I cross the line. If that occurs, I will revisit what I said and see if I could have worded it better or better explain my point or apoligize.
2.) Please dissagree with me when you want to. I have learned so much in the last few years simply by hearing out those with different viewpoints.
3.) So far no-one here has rubbed me wrong, so don’t think that has occured. Everyone here has been super kind and considerate while sharing a different viewpoint. Having been on another board, there is an obvious difference in tone and charitable dialogue.
Thank you
Quote:I will content myself to hope for more of a “love the smell of cigarette smoke in the chapel” approach and less of a “prefer my child to come home in a pine box than having broken the law of chastity” approach. FWIW, I believe that the global church leadership is sharing more and more of the former and I have never heard the latter in GC, but sometimes local implementation is spotty.
Exactly… this is the misunderstandings that absolutely must go away and get removed from the minds of lay members. I think 95% of the top 15 men already have done that. the old speculation is gone from them, now just a matter of helping ward and stakes clear up wrong ideas
I agree Brian, They are by testing and by the scientific method unproveable. Unless one has had a very specific concrete spiritual experience (as concrete as those can be, lol) confirming the church or any one of it’s claims we are left with other methods in that determination. I also agree that outside such a said experience it is more likely the church is not as it claims rather then is = Occams razor. also so maybe you know me better
1.) let me know if you think I am coming off offensive. You won’t offend me unless I feel someone is attacking me on purpose. People can dissagree with me and life is good. CWALD is a good example. Him and I differ dramatically on our views but our conversation has been very friendly on the MDD board. Please tell me if you feel I cross the line. If that occurs, I will revisit what I said and see if I could have worded it better or better explain my point or apoligize.
2.) Please dissagree with me when you want to. I have learned so much in the last few years simply by hearing out those with different viewpoints.
3.) So far no-one here has rubbed me wrong, so don’t think that has occured. Everyone here has been super kind and considerate while sharing a different viewpoint. Having been on another board, there is an obvious difference in tone and charitable dialogue.
Thank you
Good thoughts Brian. Your right our current phase is a moving target. Also by true, and hopefully I can say this once and not have to re-explain myself a lot but obviously not all will see this post, I mean real metal plates, a real Lehi and descendants writing on those plates, a real angel delivering them to Joseph, and real authority given by God to extend the ordinances of the gospel to both the living and the dead, and in some way the current President being the one on earth God will send a revelation to the world. For me and this is only me. If I came to find the above not the case it would make the church as a certainity no more beneficial to me then the universalist church down the street. Not that there is anything wrong with any other faith, just that truth then becomes realtive to what an individual needs rather then God putting in a general guideline applicable to everyone.
don’t worry, you didn’t offend and that can’t be done unintetnionally in my case. Just wanted other readers to know there are other possible outcomes. I do think though your view hurts your chances of deciding it’s true at a later date. Alma 32 says we have to have a desire to believe. without it one will likely not come to a conclusion it is true. one must be willing and desire to make a few stretches… as Teryl Givens says, once you gone down the rabbit hole what is another supernatural explanation? As a believer, who understands stage 4 very well…. too well actually. Stage 5 doesn’t have to be disbelief. Also While I agree completely that there is a dozen events or experiences that severely hurt the church’s chance of being the true church (there are explanations but you feel they are a stretch), there are also a dozens or more of things that are evidences of the church’s truthfullness. Things that are impossible to explain with also being a stretch. I think one can believe the church and not be naive. God doesn’t IMHO mount the evidence so far one way or another so that his his children can use agency and choose. That said, you are right because such a small % of God’s children are LDS he must be comfortable knowing that being in his church (in this life) isn’t a deal breaker for anyone as long as people are moving forward grabbing truth as they see it. I think to assume the church can only be false or at least not what it claims does a dis-service to people like Richard Bushman, Teryl Givens, Brant Gardner and 100’s of thousands of others who are as intelligent and well informed as anyone. When it comes to Bushman, givens, ect… I also think each of them went through stage 4 and are in stage 5. In fact I think there are proably as many faithful believing satge 5’s as there are middlewayers and complete loss of belief.
Stage 4 is ugly and painful but nessacary to move forward. you can’t skip it and go straight to 5. it simply hurts
anyway my two cents and wish you peace as you follow your heart and mind. I mean that sincerely. your my brother from another mother.
i have read it myself hoping to glean useful info. I have given both the CD and accompanying book to members struggling as I have helped them. A sister seemed to put away an addictive issue without the book being the main cause. A brother is still struggling and the program is not helping though more an issue of his personality then the program.
