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I think we tend to overestimate the negative reaction from the top leadership, while realistically being concerned about the negative reaction from local members and leaders
Right on.
Elder Holland is likely much more flexible, empathtic, forgiving, and less dogmatic then we would likely find in the median of leaders of our wards and stakes. This is due to what the perception of church teachings, doctrine, and theology are then what the reality of those things are. Many Leaders will adopt what they perceive and miss reality slightly and box themselves dogmatically It also has to do with most people being in stage three of the stages of faith. When I hear a leader say we must be obedient and to follow the leaders at all cost, that to me is a sign they are still in stage three. When they tell me Moroni 7: 15-16
Quote:“For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.”
It indicates to me they are in stage 4 or better yet satge 5.
Whether you accept the BOM as true or not, whoever experienced the story of the slaying of Laban (Nephi or the fiction’s author – obviously I believe firmly it was nephi) started in stage 3 before that event and by the end was in stage 4 or 5. Thou shalt not murder is black and white… Killing Laban is certainly progressed out of stage 3 though it seems very unwillingly and hesitantly.
By the way I think Joseph at this age was incapable of thinking stage 4 or 5 which makes it harder for me to accept him as a possible creator of the story
Quote:Question. Do you see JD and Joanna Brooks as a threat?
No, I think his approach at times does the opposite of his mission. His mission statement seems to help “non fundamental” members still find a way to fit in yet I see many of his podcast assisting others into deeper faith crisis and further out of the church. That said, This generation is going to find difficult info on the church and in wading through that one needs answers. I beleive his podcast with Bushman, Givens, Peterson, guys from Fair have been benefiscial to the individual in Faith Crisis who needs good answers but also needs the tough questions asked.Quote:Can the church ignore JD forever? Is the time coming where SLC will either have to validate JD’S vision and work, or discipline him as an apostate?
I think the church is ok with assisting “middle wayers” and those with dificult issues to find belonging. His difficulty will come IMHO if he comes accross as pushing more to help members out of the church then to help them in. Right now I see it as 50/50. That doesn’t mean that his helping the individual is 50/50. Please don’t misunderstand me. I think those struggling find in Dehlin one who will share their burdens and make them lighter, but when that is done at the cost of their exiting the church then it becomes an church issue.
Quote:In your opinion, are the “John Dehliners” sheep in wolf clothing? Do you want us teaching SS in your Ward, and sitting on your Ward council?
There is a brother in my ward who sees things much like Dehlin though still reserving judgement on the historicity of the church, and I ask him all the time to put in his two cents as they add so much to our discussion and help us better grasp what is doctrine and truth and what isn’t. There is a line where one can’t push their agenda, but one who simply offers another view and helps us all take a step back and evaluate whether we are on track or not as helpful. In other words if one wants to correct false doctrine (in the eyes of the church not by pushing their own pet theories) then great ex: declaring when someone advocates evolution as herasy and standing up to that and saying the church has no official position regardless of what a few select leaders have said is benefiscial. But if on the other hand you want to push an agenda, for example teaching that same gender marriage should be allowed in the temple then I am absolutely against that.
does that help?
I think an advanced Sunday School could be considered. My issue is that think about a regular class based on apoligetics… what does that say. What message is it giving? If one went to it regularly would one begin to mis understand what the gospel is and begin to falsely blend both areas? What I think would be the best answer is a well constructed website linked from LDS.ORG where members can get official statements on what we know and what we don’t on all these faith crisis issues subjects. FAIR has lot of good answers (some insuffcient as well) but it seems weird that they tell us more about doctrine and historical issues then the Church leaders are willing to say, though I understand the risk.
While this probably doesn’t make you feel better scripture tells us there will be some whose experience is just like yours Quote:D&C 46
13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.
My only suggestion is to forget about works. I learned long ago works are not where salvation is found. Even The extreme tow the line man Elder Bruce R McConkie said
http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=597 “Abinadi struggled with this same problem in his contentions with the priests and people of Noah. They had the law of Moses, with its various rites and performances, but they knew nothing of the Atoning One. And so Abinadi asked, “Doth salvation come by the law of Moses? What say ye? And they answered and said that salvation did come by the law of Moses” (Mosiah 12:31).
After teaching them some of the great truths of salvation, Abinadi answered his own question: “Salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses” (Mosiah 13:28).
Salvation is not in works—not even in those revealed of God—but in Christ and his atonement.“ Might you listen to the following talk and let me know if it is of any help
http://byutv.org/watch/49475abb-10d4-4f45-a757-7000b9945468 also here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLXr9it_pbY Hope in some way this helps
Bill
Quote:I try to help those in Stage 4 move into Stage 5 (or even to return to Stage 3, if necessary), but I’m not encouraging people to jump into Stage 4 who aren’t at that point already.
Great vision…. I wish we could better facillitate those in stage four trusting someone enough to let them know that’s where they are. Too much distrust and unfortunately some of it is on good reason. Many LDS leaders are in stage 3 themselves, how can they assist stage 4.
I was always afraid while in stage 4 if I approached a leader for help who was in stage 3 I would kill his testimony… which was the last thing in the world I wanted to do. I would rather just struggle through it then to hurt someone else’s faith
a member of my ward viewed it the night it hit the web. Another Bishop in the Stake saw it as well. I got a great email from a Sake President in West Virginia who said I answered every question as he would have, which made me feel more hopeful of the response it would get. I waited a few weeks to see what the response would be and when it seemed neutral or positive I went ahead and sent it to a few other members of my ward whom I respected. So far my Stake President has said nothing and I don’t plan to say anything as I don’t see it as a church matter unless he or someone else brings it up. I have gotten no praise or flack from anyone higher up and hope the interview is seen as a positive. I hope it gives people hope Quote:e) lately, I’m getting a kick out of teaching unconventional ideas in HP Group and getting rewarded for it, while facing the challenge of not crossing any lines. That part is fun.
I am planning on talking about stages of faith in Ward council tomorrow and asking if lying is always wrong. I too enjoy helping the saints find out what they think once they are forced to let go of the structure they thought they were forced to hang onto.
One thing we must be careful of is trying to get people to move from stage 3 to stage 4 faith… it is never good to force that process as it can backfire. One has to get there on their own with perhaps some soft nudges
where do you live? I am in ohio of course. I am going to Sarnia, Canada to do a 2-part fireside for another Ward on Faith Crisis and then on Grace.
You near either place or on the way?
Have you listened to my interview with Dehlin?
These posts go to show just how different we all are. At the end of the day, we each have to do what we see as the path that will eventually bring us the most peace, joy, and growth. That may or may not be in the church as I am not naive that only .02 percent of human poulation are LDS and if God plans to bring a lot of his children home his obviously has other ways then to join the LDS church in this life. That said I see this path as having a ton of value Your right the church is not going to be smooth for everyone. There will always be some who find themselves outside of the popular belief and norms of the church. But then again nothing was of value that isn’t worth fighting for. This site is about making it work. What helps me is to cut people slack for still being in stage 3 of faith and leaning more on their perceived authoritarian beliefs rather then the Holy Ghost. Too Many LDS believe what Elder Christofferson warned of in last conference of taking what they think is doctrine and making it their truth. In stage 3 they are doing what seems right. There are no gurantees that every member of the 12 has even moved out of stage 3 as we know most people get to stage 3 and stay there all their life. We want empathy from other members so we also have to extend it back. We all make up the body of Christ.
ex: a member I know shared in Sunday School during the lesson that Masons were evil. Another Brother and I softly shared that was an unuseful comment and did not constitute doctrine. She was a little put off but that doesn’t change that 40 other people got to see how false view spread and a caution to be careful what we assimilate into our beliefs
CWALD couple of thoughts.
– I agree very much that the behavior of some on MDD board was embarrasing and goes great lengths to show many members of the church are truly unprepared to deal with those in Faith Crisis. Elder Marlin Jensen hits the subject on the head and more LDS should read his comments over the last year
– I believe only a small minority of posters on MDD have fall into this catigory. perhaps only 5% but those 5% post continuously and stop any other poster from getting beyond their perceived acceptable line. The other 95% are great and many of them are made up of faithful LDS who have empathy and concern and allow an open dialogue. Unfortunately the 5% seem to be the alpha males (no offense ladies) and drown out any plea for softer dialogue. their goal seems to be to win the debate and not men’s hearts.
– While I have strong views, I also think I am open to better answers and ways of seeing things, which I think CWALD would attest to. That said you have my word not to be one to shove my answer down your throat but not shy to put in my 2 cents either. Feel free to disagree with me and let me know where I am missing something
– Having gone through serious faith crisis myself I hope you find me empathetic and concerned and real.
If faith is that much of a struggle, your paradigm then works well for many. My only added input would be that I truly believe faith precedes the miracle, so always be pressing forward for better answers from God. Life is so weird in that I don’t know why God gives some people answers and others seem to get nothing when both parties are striving for real answers. Why does Paul get a vision on the road to damascus and another tyrant gets nothing? I don’t know. I also know saying what I am about to will infuriate some as they then say why don’t I get an answer?
but ….. I have had serious answers that reach beyond the realm of explanation. So for me I know he is there. That leaves a multitude unanswered but I have that anchor.
I realise many don’t have that and it is frustrating and I really wish I could share literrally my testimony on his exisitance…. but it doesn’t work that way. why???? I don’t know
but scripture reaffirms this in saying D&C 46
11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.
12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.
13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.
an example of this occuring
Acts 28:24
23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Thank you for your comments…. I am not quite sure I fit in here but look forward to being a influence for good. I see knowledge as knowing something with 100% surety. Faith is you have some certainity of something, that is it is based on some evidence in your mind.
Hope to me is to desire something to be true but have no evidence of it.
Quote:So my question: can a person have faith without belief?
Can one have evidence something is true without believing it?
well…. can one see evidence that the church is true without still believing it is true? sure
