[Deepthinker]

On Own Now wrote:

DT,

That’s all very good advice.

I would add that religion is subjective. When I was a believer, I thought I was being objective about it. Now that I’m an Atheist, I think I’m being objective about it. But the reality is that I was/am probably wrong either way; it is subjective.

Yes, it is subjective. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a valid source of truth for us individually. I doubt any of us can ever be truly objective about everything.

[Deepthinker]

I just wanted to give another update. The AA gave me some things to read that went into some additional advice that might be helpful. I will try to summarize the best I can:

[list]

[Deepthinker]

Old-Timer wrote:

Quote:

You may be directed to the apologists for historical and doctrinal questions

Just to be clear, the AA did NOT say this. In fact, he explicitly said the opposite and referred to it as being like an addiction – or, at least, that was the outcome of the discussion about apologetics.

Thanks Ray, that is correct. I think he understands that at least some apologetics can be unintentionally counter-productive.

[Deepthinker]

church0333 wrote:

I think the only way to keep believing is to keep putting things on your shelf and when it get full just add another shelf. Most leaders and members that I have talked to about some of the issues just don’t want to think about them or study them out. Most of those who truly study the issues end up like us. I have never had anyone give me a satisfying answer, just their testimony and it has never helped. I am happy that this man took the time to meet with you but I doubt it will help in the long run. I hope I am wrong. I don’t know if you can put the Jennie back in the bottle but maybe that is not your goal.

Yes, I think that is the only way to keep believing. My goal is to reach a point where I can more easily manage walking the middle way. Meeting with him so far is helping me to do that.

[Deepthinker]

Orson wrote:

I find the comment about “not visiting the shelf” interesting, and my feeling is that approach is common in the church. Some of us have different temperaments and can’t leave it alone. I would say the key is for us to be able to let them leave it alone, and for them to understand it is important for us to know every speck of dust that exists on our shelf.

Yes, it made me realize I’m one of those that can’t seem to leave it alone. I’m just a detail-oriented person. We actually did talk about that.

What I told him that does help me is that I’m also “big picture” person.

[Deepthinker]

kinglamoni wrote:

Thanks for the update deepthinker. I am glad it was a good experience for you.

With all the “Ambiguity” how does this Area Authority know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is true? Or does he not “KNOW” the truth of it but believes it is true?

Thanks kinglamoni, I think Ray answered this.

By the way, I read your introduction and would like to add my welcome to you. I’m an engineer and love everything about science, so I really related to your background.

What I have tried to always keep in mind is that science has its limitations.

[Deepthinker]

Shawn wrote:

My body, mind, and spirit have been aching.

Faith is no longer merely believing without seeing. I am now expected to believe despite the great amount of contrary evidence.

Perhaps faith can move a mountain of evidence.

Perhaps the muscles of your faith are aching because you’re trying to move that mountain.

I can definitely relate.

[Deepthinker]

Sorry for not posting an update earlier. I wanted to; it has just been a busy Mother’s Day weekend. I did meet with the Area Authority on Saturday. We met for almost 2 hours.

While I don’t want to diminish the helpful advice he gave me and some of the insight I received, the biggest help to me was just being able to release the pressure I had bottled up with not sharing my doubt with anyone in person. It was wonderful to talk with someone who understood what I was going through, did not judge me, and only wanted to help me. I feel like I needed this release and I needed a sounding board to work through some things in my own mind.

He told me where to park discreetly, and which door to go to that once I reached I could call him and he would come let me in. He has maintained the confidentially we discussed, which I appreciate.

We each shared some very personal things, which I will not share here, and which I told him I would not share.

I did tell him about StayLDS.com and that I most likely would not be meeting with him if it wasn’t for the support I receive on this site. So, thank you to everyone. I can’t express that enough.

I did ask for his permission to share some of the things we discussed. I will try to summarize these and keep in mind some of this was his advice and some of it was insight I gained as we discussed. While much of this advice is something I’m sure many of you have heard, it became personal to me, and he was able to provide insight that struck me with more importance and applicability to my situation. So, here goes.

Ambiguity about why things happened within the church’s past is OK. We talked about my tendency to want to have all the answers.

With that, we talked about how digging into the answers some people give, such as apologists, can be an addictive habit. I realized that I need to stop looking for answers from apologists.

I thought about the mental gymnastics some apologists expect one’s faith to perform, which can only leave the bones of one’s faith seriously broken. Faith was never meant to perform that way.

We discussed the “shelf” metaphor and how mine broke. He had not heard that metaphor before, but he did say he just doesn’t really visit his shelf. The ambiguity is OK with him and is something he would expect there to be.

I told him that the desire to believe has never left me and that I feel happy living the Gospel. We discussed that that is basically my testimony, the feelings I have living the Gospel attest to the truthfulness of it for me, and that the LDS faith is my spiritual identity.

I told him that I wanted to help others struggling, and that having a group that could meet together would be beneficial. He agreed that it would.

We discussed doubt and how doubt can make faith stronger. I told him that is my goal, to use my faith crisis as a positive learning and growing experience.

He was impressed with where I am right now in rebuilding my faith. He appreciated that I had reached out to him and that he thought it was the right thing for me to do.

There were many other things we discussed; those are the main ones I felt like I could share.

We are scheduled to meet again in a few weeks.

[Deepthinker]

intothelight wrote:

I am sorry I didn’t respond sooner. I’d love to get a PM and assist however I can. Who knows why some people struggle with self-esteem. Maybe it’s a characteristic of our spirits we bring into this life, or maybe things happen here on earth that plant the seeds of self-hatred and a sense of unworthiness. For me, I think it was a combination of both. For sure, people who’ve been abused or traumatized seem to carry the scars all their life. I guess everyone has their way to try to deal with pain. Some people reflect it back at others, or will do whatever is required to make sure it can’t penetrate their shell – the angry and mean – and then others hold it inside and let it bounce around and destroy them, thinking somehow that the pain must have been caused by something they did or didn’t do, or who they are or who they are not. I’m not convinced either way is much better than the other. The third option of course is to give it to Jesus. He really was like a sponge – He is the only one who can just take it and get rid of it safely. That’s what I try to do that helps. Do I do it successfully? Sometimes yes, most of the time, no, I’m afraid I’m not very good at that.

Every person is different, but for me, I find I can let go of hurtful things when I feel safe and loved. I’ve seen other people with behaviors that are extremely damaging let go of them like that as soon as the feeling they’re trying to pull, suck, plead, and cajole out the negative behavior comes from a healthy source. We all seek the same few things, the real variance comes in where we go looking for those things.

As I’ve said in some other posts, I don’t hate the church. If anything, I blame the church more than I should – I’m not perfect, neither are they. But regardless, does the fact that the church may be true prevent my interaction with it from causing emotional damage? Nope occurred just the same. Whether it’s the church that is wrong or my view of the church and of myself that is wrong, the impact is there. I hope you can get your wife out of situations that make her feel like she is worthless and put her in ones where, eventually, however slow, she’ll have a chance to heal inside from whatever is eating her up. For sure, guilt of any kind for your wife is going to be like toxic poison. And unfortunately, whether it should be or not, the church – and most organizations for that matter – use guilt as a manipulator to get the subject to do whatever they want.

One thing that really helped me you might also try is having her read some near death experiences. Many of these are garbage, but there are good ones that ring true to me as well. The ones where the people talk with Jesus. A couple I’ve thought were pretty good. It really changed my thinking about what Jesus is really like. Not the harsh, stern, judging person He’s often made out to be. I don’t believe any more that the church speaks for Jesus 100%.

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experiences/cynthia_h_nde_5071.htm

No need to apologize. I appreciate your insight on this. I’m trying to understand what my wife is going through and it seems you might be able to understand her perspective best. I’ve decided she still needs to see a therapist. I will send you a PM when I have time.

Thanks for responding.

[Deepthinker]

SilentDawning wrote:

I give him credit for writing you back and wanting to meet with you. Kudos to the GA!

HOwever, I would personally not meet with him personally, although I might consider some limited correspondence via email.

My reasons are thus:

1. You will likely get unsatisfying TBM answers.

2. You run the strong risk of a referral to your SP or Bishop, even if he assures confidentiality. The chain of command is very strong in the church.

3. YOu want to leave your options open in case something happens and you want full integration with the church again.

That is my advice. I do appreciate the fact that he cares though. And he’s probably a busy, high achieving person.

Good luck.

Thanks SD. I understand, and I do have those fears. My desire to not pass up the opportunity is outweighing my fears right now.

I do know him personally. He was my Bishop for a few years, so I feel comfortable talking to him, which is helping to calm my fears as well.

[Deepthinker]

mackay11 wrote:

Personally I would take this opportunity. Be aware that there is always a chance that it won’t stay 100% confidential. It might, but just bear in mind it might not.

And if you do it, can I suggest you do the decent thing and not record it? I know you hadn’t suggested you would, but just saying.

Yes, I’m aware of how things could turn out, but I’m still willing to meet because I don’t want to lose such a great opportunity.

Recording the conversation never even crossed my mind, I have no plan to do that.

[Deepthinker]

Ann wrote:

I have no idea what you wrote to him about, but I hope you meet and look forward to hearing about it. He sounds sincere and trustworthy. It sounds like he won’t be anxious to get into specific issues since he offered to talk about helpful “principles.” I would love the chance to let my guard down and talk with a real human being about my faith.

Thanks Ann. Here is a summary of what I wrote to him:

[list]

Apologized for sending an anonymous email, and hoped he would understand.

Explained a brief background about my faith crisis.

That I know I should talk to my Bishop, but was unsure he would understand.

That I trust him, that I want to stay LDS, that I continue to read the scriptures and pray.

I have a testimony of God and Christ, but doubts about some LDS church teachings.

I’ve tried to be open and honest with my wife without sharing everything.

That it is difficult and painful for me to go through this feeling alone, not being able to share with my family.

I quoted Pres Uchtdorf’s talk about “Come, Join with Us!” and that I wanted to feel that accepted.

I asked for his advice/counsel/support regarding my situation.

[/list]

He is a very sincere and trustworthy person. IMHO, he is the most Christ-like person I have ever had the opportunity to know in person.

[Deepthinker]

Old-Timer wrote:

I would meet with him, but it would be without any expectations whatsoever about specific results. Any negative would be accepted, while any positive would be a nice surprise.

I also would NOT make it about any particular issue. I really don’t see closure occurring with regard to any specific topic. Rather, I would make it about the overall concept of supporting members who see things differently than the majority and not making those members feel like they have to leave the Church if they have a different view.

I am glad to hear about the response. This sort of opportunity is important and ought not be ignored.

I hope it goes well. If not, we are here to commiserate – or to say, “I told you so.” :silent: 😆

Thanks Ray, I’m going to go with only the expectation to receive his advice about how to stay LDS with doubt or different views from the majority of members. I’ve already explained to him that it is not my intent to bring up specific issues.

It is all confirmed for Saturday morning with him at his office.

I’m very nervous about this (being an introvert) but I agree, that this opportunity shouldn’t be ignored. I will definitely let everyone know how it turns out.

I have a feeling that it will be a good experience, but maybe that is just hope talking.

[Deepthinker]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

Hard to say how it will go. My only advice is to think through what you want from this meeting before you go in and state that objective up front. Be honest with yourself and with him about your expectations. Otherwise, you will probably be disappointed (you may anyway).

Thanks, some great advice.

[Deepthinker]

DarkJedi wrote:

First off, you did contact him albeit anonymously. What were you expecting? I don’t know you and I don’t know the area authority seventy. I have read many of the posts you have made, and know a little of how you think. I also believe that general and area authorities are good people trying to do what’s right (for the most part). Were I in his position, having received an anonymous email I probably wouldn’t respond in writing, either. For all I’d know you might be an anti-Mormon just looking to trip me up and publish what I wrote everywhere with your anti-Mormon twist on it. Likewise, if I did believe you were a sincere member reaching out and looking for help, I think I’d want to sit down with you face to face and have a discussion – no emailing or online chatting or whatever can be a substitute for face-to-face communication in which we can both see each others’ expressions and body language.

I’d meet him if I were you. If it starts to go badly you can always leave.

Thanks DJ. Honestly, I wasn’t sure what to expect. I wasn’t sure I would even get a response and I didn’t think he would have the time to even meet with me. I completely understand why he does want to meet in person. I have never been able to find the right time to approach things with my Dad and I think I do need some face-to-face communication. Right now I’m leaning towards emailing him back and telling him I will meet with him.

By the way, I did tell him that I know him in real life and that he knows me. Although, someone could make that up in an email to him. I hope my sincerity came across in my email.

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