[Deepthinker]

intothelight wrote:

Not that my situation is particularly important in the context of this thread, but I share many of the same experiences as your wife. This is just my $0.02, but I really do believe the root issue may have nothing to do with illness or anxiety, though no doubt it can cause that. You mention Hashimotos disease. That is an autoimmune disease, which is also what caused my problems. I seriously don’t think the relation to self-hate/unworthiness and autoimmune diseases often go together. But to be diagnosed with a disease gives a person who is crushed with guilt something they can offload some of the guilt on – which is VERY good. Now all their problems aren’t their fault. I know that helped me.

I think most negative behaviors are our maladapted ways to try to get the basics that we lack. And I guess the basic lack is one of love. I am most assuredly not saying that you don’t love your wife or don’t do everything to help her – you obviously do – but perhaps it’s that she just won’t accept that love due to her feeling unworthy. Either way, the end cause is that she’s not getting enough of it inside of her.

Rather than treating the symptoms, it may be good to try to focus on the cause. Put her in situations where she feels safe and loved as much as you can. Only you can know what those would be for her I guess. And definitely take her OUT of situations where she is traumatized and retreats further back into the other behaviors. If this means moving away from the church until she can get a healthier view of it – I would do it. God I feel certain would much rather have a happy child than he would have one who keeps doing what the church says (right or wrong) just because they’re afraid to quit doing it.

People heal the same as cuts do. You put them in a good environment and they heal themselves. People really WANT to be good. As soon as the need the person is trying meet with the negative behavior is filled in some better way, they tend to automatically move back towards the better behavior. Trying to push the skin of a cut back together so it quits bleeding will never work.

Every situation is different for sure, and I am not aware of all the complications as you are, but hopefully this is one perspective that you in your wisdom can apply for some good.

Thank you so much, your perspective is very helpful.

She started on a “clean” diet last week, something the doctor said to begin that would help manage the disease. So far, I can tell a difference in her attitude. She does seem somewhat happier. Any advice on what you have done or are doing to manage the symptoms for yourself would be appreciated.

We do communicate our love for each other often and in multiple ways and she does often say she doesn’t know why I married her. I think at least part of this has to do with a lack of self-esteem, and is a part of why she feels unworthy. I will do my best to only have her be in situations where she feels loved.

You might be right about her root issue. She did share with me an important reason why she doesn’t feel worthy. It is not something I’m sure I want to share here, but it does concern me a great deal. I would consider sending you a PM about this if it is something you’re open to accepting. No pressure, though.

I’m still hopeful that if she can begin to manage the symptoms of the disease, it will put her in a better frame of mind to accept counseling.

[Deepthinker]

An excellent article, thank you for sharing. I really like the “Destigmatizing Doubt” section and the “Do’s and Don’ts”. I think every member of the church should read this.

[Deepthinker]

By the way, regarding Mountain Meadows, I have actually taught the older children about the history of this already. Not everything, but the basics, with some of my thoughts about it. We have visited the site a few times.

In fact, my father-in-law is related to John D. Lee, so there is a genealogy aspect to learning about Mountain Meadows for us.

[Deepthinker]

Daeruin wrote:

I posed a very similar question when I first joined this forum. I don’t have time to find it but you can probably find it easily enough with a little searching. I got lots of good advice in that thread.

Thanks Daeruin, I will look for it.

[Deepthinker]

nibbler wrote:

Deepthinker wrote:

I just don’t want to have them approach me later in life and say “Dad, you knew about this, why didn’t you tell me?”

I’d hate that too, but I’d probably try to explain to them why I felt it was necessary. Kind of like what heavenly father would do… only reveal something when we are ready to handle it.

I really like this advice, thank you. The only issue is trying to determine when they are ready to handle it.

I guess I will know when they are ready, if I start out with a gentle approach exposing them to unorthodox beliefs and certain aspects of church history.

[Deepthinker]

SilentDawning wrote:

I’ve thought long and hard about this.

I think your goal overall isn’t to point them to any doctrinal arena — focus on helping them be good people. Neutralize the aspects of church culture that are destructive, without hurting their testimonies. Let the exposure at church shape what they think on the spiritual issues of testimony, but be there ready to catch them if they hit their own faith crisis.

Ask yourself “how can the church help my kids be of good character?” — there are ton of programs that do this — support them to the extent you feel you can.

I wouldn’t do anything that would upset your wife, so supporting them in their exposure to Mormonism and being a supportive husband/ father in the gospel will make things easier at home. At the same time, you can be unorthodox and teach certain principles:

1. Church leaders are not always inspired; provide antidote for leader worship.

2. Speak against judgmentalism and point it out to them when they display it.

3. Be proactive in shaping their values on issues that are not black and white in the church. I do it on sabbath day, on whether to accept callings, balance between church sacrifice and personal/career choices.

4. Encourage them to pay tithing so they get in the habit of sacrificing. You can be ready to help them define what sacrifice means when they get to be adults.

5. Come up with your own philosophy of whether “a woman’s place is in the home”. My daughter recognizes that approach may be flawed for some people, and is not consumed by the idea of having children and being a stay at home mother.

6. Expose them to the more unorthodox articles like Join With Us (Uchdorft), Concern for the One (Wirthlin).

7. Teach them to not confuse culture with doctrine, or the Church Handbook with scripture. Help them learn to use the handbook wisely and not with blind obedience.

I would avoid exposing them to testimony-weakening articles and books, and steer away from the controversy, but be open about church history (like Mountain Meadows) when it comes up, but don’t destroy testimony.

They will likely come out of Mormonism believing in God, Jesus, and maybe some form of JS testimony. I wouldn’t expose them to things that nullify all three kinds of “testimony”. I wouldn’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

When they become adults, you can have conversations with them about the unorthodox when you know what their own temperament is and whether such discussion is going to help, or hinder them.

I believe that just because I’m unorthodox, doesn’t mean my own children have to be. TBM Mormonism worked for me for over 20 years, and I’m not going to rob my kids the experience if they want it simply because I personaly hit a wall after almost 3 decades of Mormonism being important to me.

Some excellent advice, thank you SD. I do want to expose them to some unorthodox things, but not to the point that it could weaken their testimony.

Like you, I would be just fine if my children aren’t as unorthodox as me.

[Deepthinker]

DarkJedi wrote:

As I was reading through your post I was thinking “He could just share the essays and JS Papers with them” and in the end that’s what you plan to do. I endorse the idea. Maybe have family home evening type discussions about the similarities and differences between the accounts of the first vision. Maybe even analyze them – things like “Joseph describes how he saw God and Jesus but he never indicates they were actually physically there” (or perhaps guiding them to that conclusion). I don’t know how old your kids are, but I think the essays are a good place to start (unless they’re toddlers).

As a side note, one of the reasons I find the essays to be so wonderful is that they’re on LDS.org – the official site. People can’t just dismiss that.

Anything from Deseret Book or LDS.org I know my wife will be fine with. My children are 17, 15, 13, 10, and 7. So, at least the teenagers would be OK to have these discussions. In fact, I recently had a discussion with my teenage daughter about racism, the n-word, and the church’s priesthood ban.

[Deepthinker]

Thanks Ray and Ann. I’m really glad to be moving towards something that may be a solution for her. She has endured this way too long.

[Deepthinker]

Just wanted to give an update about my wife and where she is right now. I was not able to get her to go to a therapy session, although based upon recent events I think it is for the best at least for now, because I think we have found the source of many of her issues. She has been diagnosed with Hashimoto’s disease.

While we have known that her thyroid has caused her issues over the last several years, things have become progressively worse in just the last few years. The disease is causing her anxiety, inability to sleep which increases anxiety and paranoia, swings of weight gain and weight loss with no change in diet or exercise, and many other symptoms.

It is not a disease with a cure, although we are now seeing a specialist that is working with her on things that will help her manage the disease.

I’m hopeful that my wife’s anxiety and depression issues will alleviate after implementing some of the things recommended by the specialist.

[Deepthinker]

Mike wrote:

One of the greatest blessings of being a Father of grown children is when they come to me & ask advice.

In return there are many times I go to them as adults & I ask for their advice about something in my life.

When you can communicate as equals, you can say anything to each other.

It may require some risk because we feel vulnerable.

You seem like a very careful & deliberate person.

These things usually go better then we anticipate.

Thanks for this, I read this before I saw my Dad this weekend and it really helped calm me. In my own mind, I could just hear my Dad saying your first sentence, and it does echo what I feel as a Father myself.

Just as an update, my Mom had some things planned for us to do together so I was not able to have a talk with my Dad this weekend. I still plan to at some point, when the time is right. The urgent need to talk with him is not there right now, so I will just continue to prepare myself for the right time, hopefully in the near future.

I appreciate everyone’s advice.

[Deepthinker]

Unknown wrote:

Just an update. Talked to the Org’s pres. and Bishop today. The Bishop was cool, very understanding. He assured me that I was wanted there and could contribute as much or as little as I was willing and able and to speak up once I felt like I wanted do more. I am relieved and feel much better. Thanks again for the encouragement.

Another question, tithing related. I haven’t paid tithing in about a month. I haven’t necessarily decided that I won’t pay tithing ever. I’m just uncertain about if and when because of my current faith transition, I may in the future. In fact, I am still setting the money aside for that purpose, just in case I decide to. And if I don’t, it’s there to contribute to a charity. I’ve never had a problem with paying tithing until recently. I still think the greatest blessing of tithing is that giving the money regularly helps you detach from it a bit. Right now my biggest concern about tithing is not being able to attend the temple because of it. I really do enjoy the temple experience.

My question: Will the bishop eventually call me in to ask about it? How would you handle such a conversation? He knows I’m an RM and I don’t think he suspects and testimony related problems.

I’m so glad the meeting with your Bishop went well.

[Deepthinker]

Mike wrote:

Deepthinker, have you ever asked your Dad why he came back into the Church?

For what it’s worth, I have found sometimes that asking questions & getting people to talk about their life or

beliefs will help me to address the real question I want to ask.

Or maybe it is another question altogether.

No, I have never asked him that before. That is a great suggestion. Thank you.

[Deepthinker]

Unknown wrote:

I didn’t want to hijack deep thinkers thread about talking to his dad so I thought I would start a separate thread about talking to local leaders.

No worries, I’m finding there are some additional insights in this thread that apply to the discussion in my thread. I haven’t talked with anyone in person, other than telling my wife that I do have some issues about some things in the church’s history (I only discussed polygamy). Sorry, I don’t have much advice for you about talking to your Bishop, since I have very little experience in this sort of thing. I’m the Executive Secretary in our Ward and I can tell our Bishop is very much a TBM, so I doubt he would be understanding.

What I can say is that I completely understand your need to talk to him.

[Deepthinker]

On Own Now wrote:

deepthinker, no matter who you talk to… wife, dad, mom, Bishop, cousin, guy in line at the bank, think first about what it is that you hope to be understood when the conversation is over. Do you want your dad to understand that you are no longer a believer or do you want him to understand why you are no longer a believer? Those are completely separate topics. People in our situation almost always conflate them. They often want the former but wind up expressing the latter, which is usually counter-productive, IMO, because the expression of the latter is usually seen as a challenge to the other person’s faith.

Some excellent advice which I will keep in mind before talking to my Dad. I do need to sort out in my mind what my expectations are for this conversation and I will work on that. I think I just have a need to share my internal struggles with someone I care about and I don’t know what else I plan on getting out of the conversation.

My initial reaction to your question is that I’m just trying to find the closest person to me that might be the most understanding. I don’t plan on telling him I no longer believe some of the things the LDS church teaches. How much I share will depend on what he says.

I’m going to approach the subject lightly with him and let him guide the discussion. Basically, like “Dad, I came across some church history on (fill in the blank) and it has really troubled me. What have you found out about that?” His response to that type of question will determine how the conversation will go.

[Deepthinker]

SilentDawning wrote:

My advice is not to broach the subject with anyone local. You may feel you need to talk, but you can talk anonymously here at this forum about what you think, and its safe. If you let your family know, then it could open a can of worms over which you will have no control. You also don’t know what family might do in terms of telling the local leaders, and how they might respond.

Taken with your wife’s anxiety issues, and I assume, her traditional believing Mormon orientation, this could do more harm than good. I would be content with posting here, and playing it safe. Sadly,our church is not that friendly to people on the fringe. Sure there are pockets of people who are inclusive of us, but that is the exception and not the norm. It’s a lonely path, but at least having friends here on STayLDS makes it easier.

I will not talk to anyone local, my Dad is miles away from where I live, although he could still talk to my local leaders. I do have a great deal of trust in my Dad and I’m confident he will keep things confidential, especially if I request it. I also don’t plan on sharing everything and want him to take the lead of the discussion after I initiate it.

I have found the StayLDS community to help a great deal. That said, online discussions with wonderful, understanding, anonymous people (well most of us are anonymous) is just not the same as face-to-face personal interaction with someone you care about. Maybe I can get over whatever need is driving me to want to talk to someone in person.

Have you talked in person to anybody about your issues with the church? I know some have had bad experiences, and others have had good experiences.

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