[Deepthinker]

Thanks Ray and DJ, I will definitely use that advice.

[Deepthinker]

Roy wrote:

Wow. Really-Really good! And very approachable for Traditionally Believing Mormons. Perhaps the best treatment of this subject that I have seen.

Quoted for truth!

[Deepthinker]

journeygirl wrote:

I can’t think how else to describe it. Lately when I contemplate the church, I just sort of have this weird feeling about it. On some blog somewhere I read a comment along these lines, “when Jesus was here on earth he was a radical, but now he seems to be a suit and tie conservative.” This is how I feel when I compare the teachings of Jesus to the church. He rebuked the people in the bible who were strict to enforce made up rules, and yet the church is always adding new requirements or programs that to me detract from the simple gospel of Christ.

We are taught at church to follow the spirit in discerning good from evil, and yet many TBM’s response to my feeling would be that it is wrong. That I need to keep praying etc. to get the “right” answer that the church is true. So I can never win with that approach. I came to distrust my own instincts. So what do I make of this? Is it the spirit telling me that Mormonism is wrong, or am I “passed feeling”? I think I could continue to be a Christian, in the sense that I would want to follow the teachings of Christ in the bible. But I don’t know if I want to stay with this church if it makes me feel weird, but then I don’t believe I can feel the spirit, since I can’t trust my own feelings it seems.

Yes, I’ve had a feeling that I can’t describe at times when I attend church.

I wouldn’t say it is “icky”, but it is weird.

What I think is causing it is just the way in which I see things at church now, as though I have a different set of eyes when it comes to how I view the church.

[Deepthinker]

fnts wrote:

I also feel like she needs some professional help. Of the things you mentioned that she does not want to do, (drive on the freeway, call people, etc.) are those things she used to be able to do? What I’m asking is, is she withdrawing? If she has always been somewhat shy and introverted, there’s really nothing wrong with that. But if that’s not really who she is and she seems to be losing ground – that’s a pretty clear sign to me. I would do what you can to get her some help, even if you have to be a little pushy. I could be wrong, but I would bet this is something more than just feeling unworthy at church. That’s a symptom, but there’s something deeper.

Yes, they are all things she used to be able to do very well, no problems. She learned to drive in the DC area and she moved around a lot during most of her youth and had to make new friends very often. She has been going gradually downhill with this since about a year or so after our last child, so about the last 4-5 years.

I think you’re right, there is something going on that is deeper than the feelings of unworthiness. I’m going to push for going to a therapy session with me. Thanks for your insight.

[Deepthinker]

Opentofreedom – Thanks for sharing your experience. I know I have tried to convince her that she is worthy. It’s very helpful to receive some insight into what she is likely feeling and thinking. I will look up that book and approach her about reading it.

Journeygirl – family therapy is an excellent idea. She might be more open to a session with a therapist if I’m there with her. I will look into that and see what offerings are available in our area for family therapy.

Mercyngrace – Your experience does give me some ideas for what I can do to help my wife. I will look into the sermons and the books you recommended. Thanks so much for the prayers!

[Deepthinker]

Yes, I have experienced this recently and am somewhat still experiencing this. I’ve been going through a transition process with my current employment. When I was hired over 3 years ago the position was a very growing and stretching experience. The project has been winding down and I’ve been looking for the next opportunity, and not seeing much on the horizon right now. I’m not growing as much as when I first started the project and I miss that.

I think things will change once the next project comes along. Not sure if that is the same type of experience you’re having right now.

I would agree with the advice already given, although some methods are not a one size fits all solution.

For me, I have been reading some quantum physics books lately and have started writing my own science-fiction novella. I would say find something that interests you that will push your abilities, but not take away from family time.

[Deepthinker]

SD – Thanks, those are some excellent suggestions. I think it is important the way I approach my “building her up” methods. I’m not that good at it, even though the sincerity is there.

Journeygirl – Thanks for the input, I have found some online videos that I tried to get her to watch before. She wouldn’t do it. I also bought some self-esteem CDs (which were originally for me), and I’ve tried to get her to listen to them. She won’t.

I’ve gone so far as thinking about converting the audio files from the CDs and putting them on her ipod. I just haven’t wanted to push them too hard on her. I will try again with the online resources. She did actually purchase a self-esteem book for Christmas last month (totally her decision), although she has only read a few chapters so far. It’s a good step, though.

Curtis – Yes, I do know she knows she needs professional help and I think some part of her also recognizes that he she needs help. I’ve gone back and forth in my mind about setting up an appointment for her many times. I just don’t want to push her too hard, I want her to be ready. Thank you so much for the message!

[Deepthinker]

I’m similar to Ray, cwald, and Orson. Kneeling in prayer has always been more difficult for me.

My best spiritual communication has almost always been standing, walking, or sitting, and sometimes even while I’m running in the morning.

[Deepthinker]

My testimony of the LDS church, the Book of Mormon, etc. was similar to how you gained yours. There was not a particular instance. There were many within the church that would say (and still do) that you don’t need an Earth-shattering revelation or experience to gain a testimony and that many gain their testimony in small pieces over a long period of time. I assumed the same happened for me.

For believing in God, it was different for me. I have had several experiences that have increased my testimony in God and in Christ. One experience I had happened about 10 years ago when our 6 month old daughter was dying. When I was alone while this was happening and after much prayer and soul-searching I looked up to the sky and in my heart asked God sincerely “why?” Immediately after I did this I had an overwhelming feeling of love and peace that I cannot describe. The feeling didn’t seem to be coming from within myself. I have only had such feelings at times in life when I’ve prayed in my heart to God during troubling times.

I’ve somewhat changed my beliefs from the traditional Mormon and think that there are many paths up the mountain.

The LDS path does work for me. Granted, at least part of that has to do with the deep-rooted family upbringing and the culture which my family and I are very much a part of. Although, having some strong testimony-building experiences of God have definitely helped me to stay.

[Deepthinker]

Thanks for sharing your experience Roy. It does help to get many different perspectives. I think my situation right now is different from yours, although that could change.

For me, I’m looking to stay LDS for now. I see the good the church can bring into one’s life, I still believe in God and Christ even though I have a different view from most Mormons about some of the teachings and history of the church.

I’m trying to take things slowly and see how things progress as I try to take the middle way.

I had this discussion with my wife because I had to at least tell her I have some issues with the history of the church. I’m fine right now not going into detail about all the issues I have.

In some ways I wanted to make sure it was not too much of a surprise to her if I decide down the road that staying LDS is not working for me anymore.

[Deepthinker]

Your story is similar to mine, except for the church history trips. 🙂 Talking to my wife about the issues I have with the church has been difficult and I’m in the early stages of discussing things with her.

This forum is a great place to discuss these issues and find a path that works for you. You do need a good outlet for your issues and this forum definitely helps provide that.

I wish you all the best, welcome to the forum.

[Deepthinker]

Welcome Ben. I’ve been here only a short time and have found the advice and insight to be very helpful with the issues I have regarding some of the church history and teachings.

[Deepthinker]

GodisLove wrote:

I have thinking about this all day and really like how you are approaching things. When I look back on the last year the only part I would change is timing(our situation was a bit explosive because of callings) and the first words out of my mouth when I was told.

We were both in leadership and I could tell at every ward council he was ready to blow. At the time we had a (not even sure how to describe, because this doesn’t magnify the reality) zealot for a Bishop. We had some interesting moments though and still laugh at them. I have no doubt that him sharing any of his discovery and new belief would have landed him in a court or an approach to one. I don’t know how to link other topics, but read Cwalds story. We live where his family does. There are good people here, just so, so …..I don’t even know what to say.

If I wasn’t in every meeting about the “Rescue”, my husband’s name would be on it. We did get a new Bishop. He is kind but not a leader. He goes with the flow and that leaves uber controlling, “follow the prophet of our ward”, 1st counselor to lead. This part has been the most difficult because my husband’s activity change is drastic. He is attending Sacrament and helps me in Primary a lot. He is there to support me and the kids though, not the church. They are all a bit confused.

He is still the same person and I don’t feel like he is broken, so many others do. This isn’t a quick fix and it doesn’t just go away. He is angry and I understand where he is coming from. It is still difficult to hear someone treat or question his worthiness or dedication to his family, because I feel like he is more dedicated to us than ever before.

This has led to a pretty lonely path and we are on our own for sure. I think Roy mentioned that because you can discuss some things, doesn’t mean you are on the same page. Very, very true. I have some of my own issues right now but they aren’t the same as his. I do not think like him or have the same issues that annoy. This forum has been so good. The diversity of opinions has helped us both. We have had lots of discussion when it comes to change and I appreciate that my beliefs are still valued and probably heard more than they ever were.

I’m sorry for how things have gone for you and your husband. Timing is a difficult thing for something like this. I’m the Executive Secretary in our ward and I try to keep my spiritual thoughts and comments focused on God or Christ. Same goes for when I bear my testimony. I think I have an understanding Bishop, although I honestly don’t know how he would react if I were to talk to him about my struggles. I don’t see him as a “zealot”.

Yes, I know I’m not on the same page with my wife. We took a walk together after conference and discussed the talks that were given. I told her something that struck me was Uchtdorf’s talk on Saturday morning where he basically said the church (or church leaders) has/have made mistakes in the past. I brought it up as something to show that it confirmed our discussion a few weeks ago (without mentioning our previous conversation), that leaders are not perfect and have made mistakes. She basically said that I should stick my head in the sand (not her words) when it comes to the issues I’ve seen with the church history. I was disappointed, but I moved on to discuss some of the other talks.

[Deepthinker]

turinturambar wrote:

bridget_night wrote:

I would like them to tell about their new website http://www.mormonsandgays.org/ and address what they website says about how it is not choice and how to treat gays in the church. And that they want every Priesthood and RS leader to review this website. People just don’t know and gays are still being treated badly in the church.

Bridget, I’m really glad you posted this.

I was very hopeful when the church released this website last year, and although I’m not completely happy with it, it’s a good start. I can’t describe how much it crushed me when not a single word was breathed about it during the April conference. Not one. It made me feel that the Brethren don’t really care about this issue–that they’re just putting the site out there for PR reasons. This one thing has done more to solidify my disaffection than any historical detail I’ve ever encountered. If they fail to mention it this week, I don’t know what I’m going to do.

Yes, thanks Bridget for posting this. I had no idea this website existed. I do wish the church would address this issue more. I have a gay brother who I’m very close to and I’m sure he would appreciate more open discussions about this.

[Deepthinker]

Heber13 wrote:

I really liked your approach. I think what you did well was confirm some things so she didn’t have to have fear it was all or nothing…that you were going to drastically change your home life. You sounded very caring about her…not just wanting to vomit all your thoughts out and have her deal with it.

If I were in your shoes, I’d be wondering how far you are wanting to go with it, and then if you NEED to talk about it or not.

For example, are you wanting to change things, that make it so it is better to start talking about this. Like you don’t want to pay tithing anymore, don’t want to go to 3 hours of church, don’t want to wear garments…so if you are wanting those changes…then ya…you should think about bringing some things up in a similar caring way you did before.

But if you simply have changing beliefs or views, but you will keep going to church and doing what you are doing now without any changes, then I say hold off the talks until something presents itself and the topic can be brought up in the context of a natural conversation where you can share your views.

Where do you see it going?

GodisLove wrote:

The biggest thing for me was that he was just as invested in our relationship and family as he was as a TBM.

This is very poignant. It hits home when it is creating fears or doubts on the commitment in the family at home. If it can be an item that isn’t going to change the commitment, it is less of an issue. Fear of the unknown can drive people to become very judgmental, accusatory, or have them go seek advice from a bishop (which ain’t good).

Thanks, I do think the approach I used worked well. I’m actually not wanting to change anything right now. I think what I was looking to do with this conversation was to share some things with my wife that I no longer wanted to keep secret from her. I share everything with her and I don’t want to keep secrets from her. I think I needed to let some things out because I felt as though they might burst. I also wanted to let her know that even if I no longer believed some of the church teachings that I still believe in the great things the church offers as a path for life. I did tell her that I wouldn’t stop believing in God or in Christ and she knows my testimony building experiences with God and Christ that have been separate from church experiences.

I will take your advice and wait for things to come up again in conversation.

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