[Deepthinker]

GodisLove wrote:

I am the “wife” that my husband had to share his disaffection with about a year ago.

It was a very shocking thing for me to hear, but I also knew something was up and was glad he finally felt like he could share it. He shared his beliefs in chunks, not all at once. To his surprise I actually agreed on several of his points and was aware of several of the historical issues.

The biggest thing for me was that he was just as invested in our relationship and family as he was as a TBM. He also cared deeply about what this would mean to our kids and their well being. We have a 18 year old down to a 4 year old. Our families don’t really know. My family is pretty open, although very TBM. His family is….extreme. My kids all receive the New Era or Friend for Christmas (own copies). That will be an interesting bridge.

We don’t agree on everything and have had to navigate through things as they come. Some days are still difficult but probably more so because of the church culture we live in than anything. There is a website she might like that I searched for awhile called FacesEast. The same people that run StayLDS use it. I actually have found StayLDS to be more helpful for me. Like I said before I was aware of the issues though.

Good luck!

I think your advice has been the most helpful so far because it is almost like having insight into what my wife is thinking and feeling. Thank you so much for sharing this.

We have 5 children, ranging from 16 to 6, so it sounds like we are in similar situations. Right now I’m OK continuing going to church, fulfilling my calling, etc. I’m going to take things slowly.

The church culture can be difficult to navigate for those with issues and doubts with the church, and TBM family members can be even more difficult. I worry more about my wife’s side more than my side. My father has had some church issues in the past, was excommunicated, I ended up re-baptizing him several years ago. There are a few TBM brothers and sisters. Although, I actually shared some of my issues with the church to my gay brother who is completely understanding. In other words, I think have some understanding support from my side of the family.

I did some looking around and forum lurking for a while and StayLDS was the one I thought would be the most helpful for me and I have to say that has been proven in just a few weeks. That said, while advice from forum strangers can be great, I think I was looking to get some kind of sense from my wife what she would do if she were in my shoes. The conversation I had with her I think in some ways confirmed the path I’m on is fine for now.

[Deepthinker]

Orson wrote:

In the early days of my struggle I had a desire to bring my wife along to where I existed at the time. I now realize I would have been much better off to try my best to move myself toward where SHE was at that time. Eventually I realized my error, and it is true two people will always have their own views, but the old rule always applies: you can’t change anyone else, the only person you can change is yourself. If more unity is what you desire it is best gained by moving yourself.

I realize how difficult that can sound. Don’t stress over it, just consider it and try to move slowly in positive directions.

I’m actually OK with your advice about moving closer to where my wife is right now. Thanks for the perspective, I appreciate it.

[Deepthinker]

SilentDawning wrote:

Deepthinker wrote:

I’m debating about how much further to discuss things with her and at what pace, considering how well this discussion went. Does anyone have any advice moving forward after a “first discussion” like this?

I can’t remember how far you want to go with your LDS-distancing (either internally or through behavior). Perhaps you could mention it real quick here for background.

In any case, I would recommend going slowly as others recommend. I have found myself in situations lately where I have to orient people to new ideas and situations. I already know what I want them to do, where I would like to see them land attitudinally, and am several miles ahead of them.

It’s best to let the idea of what you are trying to accomplish/communicate settle on them for a while. Let them decide how they feel about it — they often feel differently than they say they did during the conversation after reflection.

And, when your wife is willing to talk again, be prepared to fashion her own expectations, thoughts and feelings into your current position on the church. Let her ideas influence your own opinion about what level of involvement you want in the church, and be open-minded.

For me it’s like this — there are times when I would like to quit my job and be a full-time music event promoter. But I know that my family needs me and so I can’t do that. …church is lkind of like that too.

Thanks SD, I don’t have any plans right now for LDS-distancing through behavior. The distancing internally has just been happening on it’s own, at least for some LDS beliefs.

I have no problem with is keeping an open mind and listening to my wife’s thoughts.

[Deepthinker]

Roy wrote:

Don’t think that because you passed a checkpoint in your discussion that you are now on the same page. People don’t move/progress/grow in a linear fashion. There can be a lot of vacillation. Sometimes you can say too much when you feel that a person is on the same page and then later those words might be used against you.

I would recommend to keep it slow, positive, and indefinate.

One thing to say is – “I’ve decided that I don’t believe in XYZ.”

A better thing to say is – “In talking online, I found someone that struggles with issue XYZ and I’m sympathetic to their situation.[Further detailed explanation] How might you feel about that?”

Sometimes my DW says things like, “I think that person should just quit whining and fulfill their responsibility.”

We can have the discussion in a non-confrontational way.

This might be too “beating around the bush” for your taste but it seems to work well for me.

Some excellent advice, the discussion with my wife did get my hopes up and I think I do need to take things slowly. “Beating around the bush” tastes fine with me for now.

[Deepthinker]

DarkJedi wrote:

I have done some reflecting since my original two cents and I have another two cents. Based on responses to my similar request for support, I think you would do well to also continually reiterate that which you do believe and/or can believe. It sounds like you have done that to an extent, repeating it won’t hurt IMO.

Thanks DJ, I appreciate your four cents ( 🙂 ), even though you and I have had different experiences on this subject.

I think I will take things somewhat slow for now with my wife.

[Deepthinker]

Jazernorth wrote:

Thanks for this discussion.

I remember the first time I realized that the church leadership were just men who woke up and put pants on in the morning, just like the rest of us. It was an odd experience, but still one to remember.

This was well before I had my falling out with the “spirit”. It is good to hear others complete and agree with my thoughts on the prophets, current and old. Noah was in a drunken sumper when he got inspirations. Kind of weird I know. Every once in a while I will see a preacher drink alcohol and I twinge, but that is from many years of being wired/programmed to think that church leadership is supposed to be holier than me. I don’t think that was the intention, but more a byproduct of how the gospel is taught.

This has helped as when I do the temple recommend interview I get itchy trying to say yes to the “do you believe {current prophet} is a prophet of god” question. I reasonably could answer yes, but I always had that little thought back there that said he wasn’t a perfect prophet. Hah, typing that makes me think I’m off my rocker, but I do know better.

All that said, I’m with the above that these are men who, if we met them we would be glad to learn from them, but they are men nonetheless.

Thanks for your insight. I stopped believing prophets were infallible quite some time ago as well and it was odd at first to think that way.

[Deepthinker]

Tobin wrote:

HI Deepthinker,

My current view of the BofA is this:

1) JS had no ability to read or translate ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics into English. I do not believe he had any training to do so. I do not believe God taught him how to do so.

2) I do not believe the BofA is contained within the Egyptian papyri. It doesn’t make any sense that Pagans would preserve (make copies of) such a record and bury it with their dead.

– However, I am sympathetic to the view that Coptic Jews may have kept such a record. If there were such a papyri, it no longer exists and it was not what JS thought he was translating.

3) The Facsimiles are Egyptian. They should be removed from the LDS scriptures.

4) IF the BofA is inspired, the ONLY way that could be true is if it was revealed to JS. The revealed English translation would have had to come from the original writings of Abraham and would have nothing to do with the papyri we have. Similarly, the Facsimiles that Abraham made would have nothing to do with the Egyptian Facsimiles we have either. I can accept the BofA may be true (I still don’t know it is) under these circumstances. However, this is a rather radical change from how the BofA is viewed today in the LDS Church.

Tobin

Thanks Tobin, I can agree with what you’re saying. You’ve provided a much better summary than some of the other theories put out there by some apologists. Of course, as you stated, this summary is much different from the mainstream LDS belief.

I have always had an issue with how some apologists have tried to use anything that may remotely resemble a link between the facsimile translations of Joseph Smith and the generally accepted Egyptologist translation. I think many of those attempts were really damaging to me when I read through them; they were stretching the truth so that they could still accept Joseph Smith as someone who could translate Egyptian.

It seems some apologists are doing more harm than good on this subject. For me, I can more easily accept what you’ve summarized and at least view the actual text of the BoA as inspired.

[Deepthinker]

Old-Timer wrote:

“The Book of Abraham” – This thread has 74 comments: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=501&hilit=Book+of+Abraham

“The Lost Book of Abraham” – This thread has 78 comments: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2105&hilit=Book+of+Abraham

“Translation” – This thread has 38 comments: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3372&hilit=Book+of+Abraham

Feel free to read these threads and bump any or all of them up for further discussion by commenting on it/them. There is some REALLY good stuff in the comments.

I should have done a search myself, sorry about that. I will read through these other threads as well.

Thanks for doing some of my homework, Ray.

[Deepthinker]

DarkJedi wrote:

Thanks for sharing this DT. As someone trying to make the transition to return to church after a long absence, I find your thoughts helpful. Most of them I do anyway (like follow Christ’s teachings). My crisis of faith was more of a crash, and the opposite of your experience has been true for me in that I am now rebuilding line upon line – but the questions still lead the way in that rebuilding. I question everything, and I am not at a point where I really know what I believe about all things yet, but I know what I believe about some.

I especially like #4, and that’s something I need to work on. I think you’re right, it is human nature and I need to think that through a bit more in my own mind so I can use it as a coping tool. I usually do get a fair amount of time I can meditate, which I suppose some people could say is the problem – if I didn’t meditate I wouldn’t question. On the other hand, questioning and meditating, I believe, has given me a greater understanding.

I’m glad this list was helpful for you. Just preparing the list helped to solidify in my mind what has/does really work for me.

I guess one other thing that helped me was that I had developed a testimony of God and Christ through enough spiritual experiences outside of the church that at least my basic beliefs about God never crumbled even though some LDS beliefs did.

[Deepthinker]

Thanks to everyone for the warm welcome.

[Deepthinker]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

Welcome to the site!

Quote:

I still do have a testimony of Christ and have a desire to continue to live according to Christ’s teachings. I’m truly at peace when living Christ’s teachings.

Well, I can’t think of a better reason to stay in the church. Not because you need it so you can follow Christ, although it will give you opportunities to serve, but because the church needs people who really do desire to live according to Christ’s teachings first and foremost.

Thanks, I’m going to keep with it and see how things go.

[Deepthinker]

Roadrunner wrote:

Welcome. I think you’ll find a lot of people here with similar beliefs and experiences. I’m in a bishopric too and when I share my testimony it’s Christ centered and when I talk about the BofM or modern prophets I use generalities. When I choose sacrament meeting speakers I assign topics that are more or less non-denominational such as “endure to the end” or “importance of hard work” or “loving your family”. My bishop always says he loves my topics but I’m waiting to be “outed” and my temple recommend yanked.

In my opinion, one of the difficult challenges facing many of us on this forum is how to interact with a TBM spouse, similar to what you describe. It sounds like you believe there are many positives about the church and even the culture which you don’t want to lose, but that there are some you could do without. That’s probably similar for lots of us here. The church is still a net positive in my life but there are days I wonder if that’s true.

Regarding your comment about your family seeing you as very strong – people often see what that want to see – including us. My wife knows the extent of my faith (and lack thereof) but she either doesn’t believe me or doesn’t *want* to believe me.

Again, welcome and I look forward to your insights.

So glad I’m not the only one going to church that does those things. I agree; the church is a net positive in my life. What you said about the way my family sees me reminded me of a quote that goes something like “our eyes only see what our mind is prepared to see”. I made up a similar quote for the spiritual: our spiritual eyes only see what our hearts are prepared to feel.

In all honesty, my wife says she doesn’t feel like a TBM. Yes, she comes from a long line of Mormon families, however, she has openly told me that if it wasn’t for me she probably wouldn’t go to church. Her issues are not doctrinal and church history related, though, they are more about having social anxiety. She does love the teachings, loves the pioneer stories, she just often says she doesn’t ever feel like she fits in. I’ve wondered many times about telling her my doubts. I just don’t know how she will react.

[Deepthinker]

DarkJedi wrote:

Welcome, you are not alone here. Although my path has been different from yours, I am in a very similar spot and my faith is currently focused on Jesus Christ and what I am beginning to call “pure doctrine” in my own mind. I look forward to you sharing with us and the opportunity to share with you.

Thanks, I look forward to it as well. It is great to have a place for expressing things not easily expressed within the church. An outlet is needed.

[Deepthinker]

On Own Now wrote:

Welcome. I look forward to your insight. Your story is a common one here. I know that for me, it was a great blessing to find this site and realize that I wasn’t a freak.

I know it’s hard right now… very hard. But I think some of the things you’ve said are a good way to approach life in the Church for those with a changing faith.

Thanks, it definitely is very difficult.

I wouldn’t rule myself out quite yet as not being a freak, though. 🙂

[Deepthinker]

Life_Journey_of_Matt wrote:

Hey Deep,

Man, I couldn’t have put it more beautifully. You just recounted the last 10 years of my life. I felt my conviction drift away while my shell stayed behind and went through the motions. It’s hard to deal with, and even harder to admit that it’s happening. Congrats on getting that far. I think you will find support and genuine concern from this online group. They’re a stand-up group for a bunch of people who actually probably meet each other sitting down. 😆 Wow, that was bad. Anyway, my only advice at this point would be to allow yourself to go on the journey, even if your seeking is mostly kept to yourself for now. If you’re like me, as soon as you admit that you know you don’t know, then you’re already on your way to finding something meaningful. Welcome!

Thanks Matt, it means a great deal to me to know you and I have similar experiences. I confess that my eyes became a little too wet just reading your post and not because of the humor, because it really hit home with me. Although, I do appreciate the humor, even if it is bad. 🙂

I’m going to go on the journey and take things one day at time. Thanks for the advice.

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