[Dkormond]

Old Timer wrote:

Different views are fine here, including orthodox ones, but we try hard here not to insult or condemn people for choosing to live differently than we do. The Golden Rule and all that Jazz applies to those who leave, and it applies to those who stay.

Following that guideline isn’t easy, and we fail at it here sometimes, but we try. That is important to us.

I guess I’m missing the connection between the Lambo and leaving the church. Did they spend money they would have otherwise spent on tithing? If so wow!! A new Aventador is about $400k, if that’s the case I seriously doubt that the Lamborghini had anything to do with leaving the church because that would place their income north of $4 mil. If that’s the case I seriously doubt satan made them buy it.

Last do you seriously think that they have rejected God, or eternity? That is the exact belief that needs to be purged from the church. We are saved by Grace not rejection of expensive cars. How do you know they have rejected Christ? How do you know what their path is? Why would you EVER think that because someone who leaves the church is lost? How do you know if they aren’t donating that money to stop sex trafficking, or stop world hunger? Holy cow this makes me fired up!!

If you only believe that active church members will be saved how many people will actually be in Heaven? Less than 0.01% of the worlds historical population have ever heard of the LDS church, and do you honestly believe that even if they accepted the gospel in the afterlife they won’t be responsible for the way they lived their lives?

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[Dkormond]

Old Timer wrote:

Yep. I get that. Mine was a very shorthand attempt to say what you said.

Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

You’re good.

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[Dkormond]

Heber13 wrote:

I share your frustration.

I usually eye roll and think they are doing their thing where they say their thing from their point of view but you just take it with a grain of salt and say to yourself….”I simply disagree.”

I usually feel the same also when they talk about the evil world…when all I can think is how much better life is for us now that 100 years, 200 years, 2000 years…. simply…we have progressed. We should not pretend the evil outweighs the good.

But they are telling stories…they preach.

I would say science has it’s limitations too…and in the religious speakers are in their realm focusing in feelings and spiritual lessons, not literal truths. So, I get what they are saying and I have to ignore them at times, but sometimes it just a bit much to me also and I just can’t respect things they say with superlatives. They lose credibility to me when they talk about it in shallow ways.

Have you ever read Bennion’s book….”Religion and the Pursuit of Truth”?

Have you ever heard of the work of Robert Lifton? He was a psychologist who embarked on an amazing journey. He interviewed people who had been imprisoned by the communists in China after they took over. He interviewed them upon release, usually to Hong Kong.

From his work he defined what a cult is. His definition burrows deal into my soul.

1.) Cults control information.

2.) Cult Leaders are chosen by God and considered infallible.

3.) Cults demand purity

4.) Cults demand confession of imagined sins.

5.)Cult doctrines are inflexible.

6.) Cults Load the language

7.) Cult doctrine trumps experience

8.) Cult doctrine trumps existence

I listen to these talks and I try and qualify what I see, what I experience, and what is revealed to me through the exploration of truth and I feel ignored.

BTW his book is called “Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism.”

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[Dkormond]

WholesomeRecreation wrote:

Thought provoking to see this. I had what I considered a good day at church today because I caught up with an old friend, enjoyed some of the sacrament meeting talks (on service), teacher training was a decent discussion, and in YM’s I helped the youth set some goals. In my TBM day’s it would have been nearly the perfect Sunday. Yet when I came home, I was surprised to feel completely wound up inside and needed to go for a walk, alone, to decompress. I wonder if it’s similar- I have to guard my comments so that I can participate and try to be authentic, and yet the entire time I’m guarding all my words- maybe I just find it mentally exhausting… Not sure the cause yet.

I’m anchored by family so I’m not giving up yet, though…

I had to walk out today in SS. The lesson was on marrying out of the covenant. I wanted to vomit when someone stated that marrying in the temple created a marriage to Heavenly Father. Give me a freaking break! I didn’t marry God I married my spouse, and any insinuation otherwise makes me sick. I find the whole notion of not marrying people outside the church isolationist and contrary to what Christ taught. Excuse me! Christ sent the gospel to all nations, Jew and Gentile. We are not the ancient Jews and if you think a temple marriage creates harmony you’re waaaay off. Honest open love between two people creates harmony God can bless that, but you don’t marry God. Sorry for the rant. I agree with all you have said. I want to scream out the truth, but I can’t.

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[Dkormond]

kate5 wrote:

I don’t blame the church for my depression and anxiety problems however when I read an article such as this about spiritual abuse, I realize that the church has been a contributing factor. At the very least, it doesn’t provide me with any help or comfort.

There are many other articles and books that describe spiritual abuse the same way. I am just curious as to what opinions the great people on this site have as to what constitutes abuse.

http://www1.cbn.com/biblestudy/beware-of-%26quot%3Bspiritual-abuse%26quot%3B

ETA: Here is another article that resonates with me

https://www.charismamag.com/spirit/spiritual-growth/33517-have-you-noticed-these-14-warning-signs-of-spiritual-abuse

These are wonderful articles. I bet that the majority of those who subscribe to this group have an example of these circumstances in their lives. It is perhaps, my greatest struggle with the church.

Have you ever read “Thought Reform and The Psychology of Totalism,” by Robert Lifton?

He is/was a psychologist who interviewed escapees from communist prison camps in the 50’s and 60’s. His work led him to define what a cult is. Much of his beliefs are displayed in the article on Spiritual Abuse.

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[Dkormond]

AmyJ wrote:

I have been trying to write this post in my head for about 2 weeks now.

One of the things I learned in studying the Old Testament through the Yale Great Courses class last year is that the Bible narrative is very fluid and very dynamic. Moses is not prophesying about the same things that Isaiah, or Ezekiel, or Malachi, or Samuel was prophesying.

In studying Isaiah (in the Book of Mormon), I started asking the question “what if the scriptures are all narratives put together to explain/define our relationship with God?” (I still don’t have an answer for this one, but it sounds right when it jostles around in my brain.)

Related questions:

* What narratives do I have/use to define God?

For example, I know that part of my narrative is that God is like a Father to me. But my part of the narrative pulls from my experiences with my own father – who was big on letting us face the choices of our consequences and make a lot of choices on our own. When I was a pre-teen, I borrowed a lot of medical books/encyclopedias to read up on growing babies because I was thinking of becoming a doctor and I wanted to understand what each of my siblings was doing developmentally. I gather he got a lot of flack for that because these subjects were judged as being the “wrong books” or the “wrong subjects” for a pre-teen girl child in the 1980’s.

Another example I can use is my mother. Her father deserted their family when she was 2. It has been a struggle for her not to feel deserted by God through various life circumstances.

* Are there scriptures/stories where God is defined outside a narrative?

For the longest time, I would have put the First Vision in this category. But then reading on this site got me thinking, and since we don’t know if it was a literal visitation, and have evidence it may have been a vision instead, I have no further evidence either way.

Or do we have to have a narrative to define the nature of God for us on an individual and/or cultural and/or societal level?

This what I am personally leaning towards, but trying to sort out my narrative from everyone else’s narrative is a lot like separating spaghetti noodles after they have been cooked. Very hard to do, very sticky, and have a tendency to break at random intervals.

Somehow I feel like I just put a whole semester’s worth of work into 3 questions…

Wow! Your insight is both beautiful and compelling.

Historically speaking humans have adapted their definition of God to meet their needs. In the dark ages God was harsh and cruel, probably because life was very difficult and explaining the environment was also difficult. Therefore, God was feared.

Several years ago I went to the Joseph Smith Birthplace in Vermont. I spoke with the elderly Missionary who was there. In the winter the temperature frequently does not climb above 20 degrees in the middle of the day. Life would have been very hard and discouraging. People needed an explanation to give them hope.

It’s similar to the movie made several years ago called “The Invention of Lying.”

The more I study the Bible the more I believe we are truly saved by Grace. I do not believe as the church teaches in this regard. I feel that our explanation is merely a way to control.

My favorite description of God the father is found in Matthew Chap 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

This is my definition of God.

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[Dkormond]

One last clarification/elucidation. I’ll share the story because I hope for insight. As I said I work with children. I have a family I work with where dad was abusive. The mother divulged the abuse to her bishop. The bishop told the Stake President who called the father. The father went home and sodomized the mom and beat her in retaliation. Years ago my ex assaulted me in front of our children. I filed for a protective order. My bishop called me when he found out. At our next court hearing, to my surprise, my bishop was there to testify against me and divulged our conversation. I contacted my Stake President and the church and the next thing I knew I was receiving letters from The church’s attorneys demanding that I not contact any more church authorities regarding the incident. I never received anything close to an apology from the church or the local leaders. I see similar events to this regularly in my work. Perhaps all of my skepticism is just anger.

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[Dkormond]

Thanks everyone. Do you feel like denying your truth has a long term negative affect on your soul?

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[Dkormond]

DoubtingTom wrote:

This is really hard issue for me. Brigham taught the ban as if it was revelation, using clear wording to that effect. So it begs the question, if a prophet can teach false doctrine believing it comes from God, and members can hear and accept that doctrine and get a confirmation from the spirit that it’s true, then what trust can we have today that either a prophet is teaching true doctrine from God and also whether or not we are receiving a confirmation?

The only answer that satisfies my mind is that it all comes from humans – the doctrines the prophet teaches, the spiritual witness that confirms it. It all comes from an internal source – our minds.

So to answer the original question: No. Brigham taught his opinion and thought it was revelation from God.

I agree with your assessment. If you read what B.Y. Taught he clearly taught that black people are the seed of Cain and unworthy. That belief was taught by the church for generations. Have you ever read the talk by Mark E. Peterson given in a general conference where he taught that as black people accept the gospel their skin turns lighter?

How many other revelations have been opinion? There is plenty of evidence that polygamy was just an opinion. Have any of you seen the now deleted section 101 from the D&C? So was God lying during that revelation?

I am at a huge loss here. How do I trust anything?

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