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Heber13 wrote:
That’s an extremely wise and practical response, Thoreau.
:thumbup: I agree. Surely I was worse off as a person without the Church than within.
I think this is great. It might be better if more people went into the mission field like you, where you’ve seen the two sides of the coin and have made an informed decision about what is right for you. It sure beats naivety! I agree that you really can’t define what the “middle way” is and you really can’t devise a plan or solution that is going to work for everyone. When it comes down to it, it has to be a “my way” approach. I don’t think everyone was meant to be at the same level of faith, of commitment, as everyone else. As the scriptures say, “line upon line, precept upon precept.” While I do believe there are some things that we need to do, and some things that we should believe, it is my opinion that as long as we are true to the first principles of the gospel, we will find what works for us and get where we need to go. I’ve never had this happen. I don’t know which worries me more; that I will one day taste that, or that they don’t clean their hands in the first place.. I don’t know about Movies as much as television shows. Supernatural, for instance. Dean is taken to a very temple-like room that is white, with a beautiful chandelier and the “eternal mirror.” His half brother named Adam is later inhabited by the angel Michael, and other parallels.
A lot of times I am unsure about just how I feel about ordinance work for the dead. I tend to think of it as something I’m doing to remind myself (and sometimes a renewal) of the faith I live more than as being a savior on Mt. Zion myself. Most of the time I agree with Romans 1:19-32. God has made himself known to ALL and so ALL are without excuse for their actions. I’ve heard this from a lot of Christians as their perspective of what happens to people who die without knowing God (or Christ). And like I said, Most of the time, I agree.
SamBee wrote:doubting mom wrote:doubtingthomas wrote:
SamBee: I cannot stand listening to re-hashed conference talks. It especially becomes nauseating when they say something along the lines of “I was asked to give a talk on so and so’s Conference talk” or “I was asked to speak on this topic and was given two talks from so and so to use.” I tune out almost immediately upon hearing that.Ugh this is a pet peeve of mine. I don’t know if it’s because I took a public speaking class or what but I feel it’s the number one rule in speaking to not say I’m going to speak on ____. Whenever I’m asked to talk I take the GC talk or article and use it for jumping off points. The best compliment I got after a talk was that it flowed very nicely.
Well, this is the thing, I think the original conference talks are often okay, but it’s the rehash that’s the problem. Few people can rehash, or give a GC speech properly, and what’s the point since they’re filmed?
I’d rather hear ancient GC talks from pre-broadcast/film days, then at least they’d be fresh to a new generation.
Me, too! In fact, I recently watched a couple of videos of George Albert Smith speaking at conference. He almost sounded like a preacher. So full of life and zeal. His hands were being used while speaking, his voiced often raised in excitement when he spoke. Nothing like the monotone, tired-sounding things I hear a lot these days.
I am told by a friend that things are toned down now because “we have evolved.” Evolved into what?
I don’t think utopia will ever really be achieved in this period of time. Perhaps once there exist the new heaven and new earth, but not in this currently fallen state of things. In the end, the government (Church) is what you are consecrating all, ALL, that you have to. So technically, they do “own” it all, and divvy it up accordingly. I don’t know. Bruce is right. Whether this would create an actual Utopia, I can’t say. But we certainly are a long way off from that. Isn’t that what Mormonism and the United Order was intended to do though? Especially once the Saints went west with Brigham Young? It depends on who you ask. Any true-believing Mormon would tell you “of course not!” In my personal opinion, yes it is. Classic redistribution of wealth (not necessarily monetary wealth). And I absolutely believe the reason that the United Order failed each time it was started is because of the fact that as history shows, that type of system just does not work. I’m not sure how you can have the emphasis on work and personal responsibility and still expect a system that allows for redistribution of your increases to others who have less to work. It seems to me that a little effort on the part of the individual goes a long way.
I think that’s why our government welfare system is in such shambles. There are a lot, but not all, who are taking advantage of the system because it means not having to work, getting free housing, free medical benefits and/or free money without having to work for it.
I think that the Church welfare system works because it does require some kind of effort on the part of the recipient where as the federal system does not.
I truly believe people do deserve help when it is needed, but I have seen several instances where individuals are using the system as a crutch in order to not have to put forth any real effort to make their lives better.
The more I think about it, though, when it comes to this kind of topic, I am inwardly full of contradicting notions regarding such systems. Perhaps if I, and everyone else, did more to clothe, feed, minister, house, etc. those around us, perhaps we wouldn’t need these types of programs to begin with.
Our lesson was on tithes and offerings. I liked it because the teacher just got up and didn’t even open the book. He just said what the lesson was about, spoke of some personal experience, and everybody just gave personal examples of paying tithes and offerings, whether monetary offerings or just giving up extra time in service to others. It was nice. I cannot stand word-for-word-from-the-book lessons. Sunday school was a whole other story. Evidently, not everyone understands that many, if not most, are in financial downturns right now, and when you say we can all easily do better than we are now by simply giving a more generous donation for fast offering, a lot of people are made to feel bad or like they don’t measure up. To those people I say, “Please, do not talk ever again.”
Boy, I have often felt this way at Church, too! Personally, I will always disagree with your average member’s take on “Cafeteria Mormonism.” But then again, hasn’t there always been this sort of Us vs. Them mentality?
I hate that the equation is often made, indirectly or not, that Jesus = The Church. But why shouldn’t they have that attitude? Marion Romney said, “This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life” (Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119). Perhaps that’s where the notion comes from..
I also dislike the way submitting to the will of the Father is made equivalent to doing as you are told without question.
Perhaps we both have just had one of those days.
When any kind of apology is made, that seems to be what it is. A sincere regret for what happened, but not an outright apology or admission of guilt. Most Mormons I’ve talked to about Mountain Meadows, for instance, still believe that it was all the work of Native Americans, though history tells a different story. Of course no one wants to believe that the organization they are a part of, to which they’ve dedicated their entire lives, has members (high up or not) that were/are capable of such a thing. The fact remains, however, that we are all capable of unspeakable evil. I say it is by the common grace of God that we don’t see more evil than we do presently, or have in the past. I’ve heard apologies to people from membership or individuals, but never an outright apology as the official Church position. I don’t think that good works necessarily come naturally as a result of being saved, or receiving His grace. I do, however, believe that you would try your very best to forsake sin and do good continually. See, I DO believe that we should be involved and actively engaged in good works, I just don’t believe that they are necessarily what gets you saved, as it were. I agree with James when he says faith without works is dead, but he also says he will show he has faith by his works. Many people do the works, hoping for God’s blessing, without really having the faith to receive those blessings. Then again, he also said that if you try to keep the law (including it’s works), and offend in one point, you are guilty of the whole of it. I guess that sort of sounds like you’re damned if you don’t and you’re damned if you do. Ha…
