[doubtingthomas]

I haven’t been in the service of the Church for as long as you two, but I can definitely see where you are coming from. Plus, I’d much rather teach every Sunday lesson that the boring “read-along” that is generally the EQ Meeting. But, George, you probably will never get a temple recommend again. It doesn’t seem to me that the Church apologizes for anything, so much as receives divine revelation changing it.

[doubtingthomas]

Oh boy.

This topic always seems to be a firestarter.

For me, grace is something which you could never earn and never repay. It is God’s unmerited favor. I work because I have received grace, not so I may receive it. Paul taught that it is either grace or works, but not both, in Romans 11 and that grace is not an excuse to live any which way you choose in Romans 6. I think if you have received grace, or were “saved,” as it were, that your life would reflect gratitude for that gift of God, and not returned with a punch in the abdomen. Ephesians 2 tells us that it is the gift of God by faith, and not something we earned by our own works. This idea, though apparently not emphasized in the Church, is found in the Analysis of Galatians in the Bible Dictionary under the topic Pauline Epistles.

We all know the verse stating we are saved by grace, after all we can do. I take an approach to that verse as more of a “in spite of all you can do.” When it comes down to it, what is all you can do? Are we not all guilty of doing less than we could in one way or another?

At any rate, this is an argument that has been debated almost since the gospel was first presented and it is not likely one to be settled any time soon.

For my personal opinion, I think this sums it up: Justice is getting what you deserve. Mercy is not getting what you deserve. Grace is getting what you do not deserve.

[doubtingthomas]

SilentDawning wrote:

doubtingthomas wrote:

I agree. I believe this is what we do as a Church, with perhaps the exception of giving what you can afford. 10% is just the going rate, and the Church considers tithing a commandment even for the destitute (as I read in an Ensign article).

Do you remember approximately when that article came out? I’d like to read it.

It was evidently from a talk given in 2005. Link here for the whole talk: http://lds.org/general-conference/2005/04/tithing-a-commandment-even-for-the-destitute?lang=eng or here http://lds.org/ensign/2010/06/small-and-simple-things?lang=eng&noLang=true&path=/ensign/2010/06/small-and-simple-things for the more recent article from June 2010.

[doubtingthomas]

SilentDawning wrote:

doubtingthomas wrote:

I think it is hard to say on this one. I like getting alternate views, especially objective views when possible. I’ve read a bit about this before and there is compelling evidence for both sides of the argument. In the end, I would say that, yes, it is wise to read other sources for Church History, but only if the sources can be verified historically. Ours and theirs alike.

What I’m asking is whether this is a wise approach for A CHURCH to take on its own history.

I guess I took this one the wrong way. As far as what you are asking, yes, I would say it is wise. Or, if nothing else, honest.

[doubtingthomas]

I’ve been following this post not knowing what to say. First off, I’m sorry that this is even happening to you, and hope it doesn’t have to happen to anymore of us. I mean, I can understand why the Church might want to keep an eye on a group or groups that are actively seeking to undermine or rebel or otherwise cause damage to the institution, but at the same time, what I’ve seen here is pretty far from that in the first place.

[doubtingthomas]

I think it is hard to say on this one. I like getting alternate views, especially objective views when possible. I’ve read a bit about this before and there is compelling evidence for both sides of the argument. In the end, I would say that, yes, it is wise to read other sources for Church History, but only if the sources can be verified historically. Ours and theirs alike.

[doubtingthomas]

I pay tithing because I want to. I don’t know, and probably will never know where the money goes that the Church collects from it’s faithful each year, but I have faith that it is used for good, in one way or another.

“Most New Testament discussion promotes giving and does not mention tithing. 2 Corinthians 9:7 talks about giving cheerfully; 2 Corinthians 8:3 encourages giving what you can afford; 1 Corinthians 16:2 discusses giving weekly (although this is a saved amount for Jerusalem); 1 Timothy 5:18 exhorts supporting the financial needs of Christian workers; Acts 11:29 promotes feeding the hungry wherever they may be; and James 1:27 states that pure religion is to help widows and orphans.” – This according to Wikipedia.

I agree. I believe this is what we do as a Church, with perhaps the exception of giving what you can afford. 10% is just the going rate, and the Church considers tithing a commandment even for the destitute (as I read in an Ensign article).

[doubtingthomas]

I’ve always had a problem with this kind of thing. How far and how seriously do we take the teachings of Jesus when it comes to an eye for an eye or love and turning the other cheek. I know that in some cases we may need to defend ourselves. For me it is kind of like the concept of loving your enemy. Am I as likely to share a cup of water with someone like bin Laden as I am, say, my own son? Probably not, and I wish that weren’t the case. I don’t really know where I am going with this other than to just agree with what has already been said about joyous celebration over the death of another living, human being, despite how they were perceived by others.

[doubtingthomas]

Katzpur wrote:

doubtingthomas wrote:

Then again, that letter also said not to spend the time with thankimonies, travel logs, and to keep them short and Christ/gospel-centered. It’s a rare occasion that I see any of that.

I have a real problem with the thankimonies, too, because what they really are is bragamonies in disguise. “I’m so thankful for my eight wonderful children. All of them graduated from Seminary. All of them went on missions. And all of them married in the temple. One of my sons has just been called to the stake high council, and two of them are bishops. One of my daughters is married to a stake president and one is the stake Young Women’s President. We’re so blessed!” A former Relief Society President in my ward once actually said, “My boys are such good boys. I’m so grateful for them. I just know that Heavenly Father looked down on me and said, ‘I’m going to give her good children. She deserves to have good childen.'” That’s the last thing a mother who has two inactive children (out of two total) needs to hear. I mean I know I made mistakes raising my kids, but to have to listen to people brag about their blessings is just too much.

Once in a great while, I’ll hear a testimony that is incredible. It just happens so rarely and this other stuff happens every single time.

You’re right. I love it when there are such incredible testimonies but nine times out of 10, it’s just what you’ve said.

[doubtingthomas]

It is a daily…weekly struggle.

[doubtingthomas]

Then again, that letter also said not to spend the time with thankimonies, travel logs, and to keep them short and Christ/gospel-centered. It’s a rare occasion that I see any of that.

[doubtingthomas]

I also cannot stand this. Especially when it has been said time and time again that if your youngsters cannot do it on their own, they should not do it at all.

[doubtingthomas]

Mormonism was right :crazy:

[doubtingthomas]

Thanks for asking! I’ll elaborate a little more on what I have already mentioned and also talk about what other things I enjoy..

As I mentioned before, I have found the general fellowship among the Saints to be beneficial. It gives me an opportunity to associate with (mostly) like-minded individuals that i don’t get in most other places. There are few Mormons, and fewer active, in my workplace and I am the only member in my family. My wife’s side are, I believe, all LDS. There are some who have lost their way, or found it, depending on how you want to look at it. So being there provides me with an occasion to talk and connect with others on a level I may not be able to with others.

Another thing I have enjoyed is the conversation that sometimes happen during Sunday School/Priesthood. Occasionally people do say things that are quite profound, even among the mind-numbing and sometimes ignorant things that are said. I guess that happens everywhere but I could definitely do without the ridiculous things I sometimes hear in my Church experience.

My wife, son and I are closer now than we were before. We attend meetings and I now take the steps that are necessary to make sure things like FHE, prayer, scriptures, etc. are getting done and that seems to have made a big difference in the way we relate to each other and the love and intimacy my wife and I share. Maybe it is all psychological or a placebo, but even if that is the case, I welcome it with open arms.

I guess those are the three things I have found to be most beneficial. I still enjoy opportunities to serve in the Church and elsewhere, whether I am asked to as part of my duty to others or not. Doing things for others is something I’ve always liked to do. I don’t know, my wife says that I am very service-oriented and I never thought of it being that way until she said it. I just always did those things. Also, even though attending sometimes feels like spiritual suicide, Sacrament service does help me to feel the Spirit, and ultimately, feel closer to the Lord.

[doubtingthomas]

I first heard that story a few years ago and it was been attributed to a few different Church authorities (usually Boyd K. Packer). However, you are right that it was corrected from the pulpit. A letter from the First Presidency was read to address these types of things and said basically that it isn’t true and isn’t appropriate to be used during any Church meeting, talk or lesson. The letter is here.

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