[embwbam]

I guess so. I’m willing to consider changing my mind if I should, but I feel like I can’t keep it up forever, and now’s as good a time as any to show we can still have a good relationship?

So I’m more wondering *how* to do it I guess.

[embwbam]

Thanks Silent Dawning. Those are really good points.

I’m pretty close with my family, and we interact a lot. We’re out of the country now, but we are traveling back to live with them for a few weeks in December. I would guess that over the next couple of years we will spend about 4 weeks a year living in the same house as we visit each other.

I mean, she’s going to be in our two bedroom house. I don’t even have full garments with me. I’d literally have to sneak around to avoid her having to see me not wearing them when I go to the bathroom at night and stuff.

[embwbam]

Thanks for your words Ray. To clarify, I worry that by struggling to stay motivated I am doing a disservice to the quorum: failing at assignments, etc. if it were just about what was good for me it’s pretty easy to say you should usually pick the harder thing

[embwbam]

Missionary work doesn’t even make sense from a TBM perspective, unless it’s centered around how it might help a person in this life. If everyone gets a chance later, it’s not about salvation at all, it’s about bring people the blessings of the gospel, whatever those might be.

So, while I’m not fired about missionary work myself, I would try to get people to think about how the gospel has improved their lives. For me, it’s brought me a wonderful wife and kids I would have had later or not at all without it.

Other people could definitely benefit immediately from the church’s teachings on family focus. So, that’s what I would share.

What makes the gospel worth it for you? Think about that and ask your class to think about the same?

[embwbam]

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For me and this is only me. If I came to find the above not the case it would make the church as a certainity no more beneficial to me then the universalist church down the street. Not that there is anything wrong with any other faith, just that truth then becomes realtive to what an individual needs rather then God putting in a general guideline applicable to everyone.

This is really interesting, because it’s precisely those kinds of things (scientific and historical assertions) that seem least likely to be true to me. Maybe you’re right though, I guess I’m admitting that the church might not be any more beneficial than the universalist church generally.

BUT, that’s not true for me. So much of my life is tied up in the church that it’s almost definitely better for me to remain involved here instead of seeking elsewhere. So I guess I’m saying that there’s still real value in the church even after I’ve decided those things probably aren’t literally true.

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Not that there is anything wrong with any other faith, just that truth then becomes realtive to what an individual needs rather then God putting in a general guideline applicable to everyone.

I think we sometimes mistakenly conflate truth with values. Truth remains definitely absolute to me, but values seem relative. What God wants from me may be different from what God wants from someone else, while a fact simply remains a fact.

[embwbam]

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I think to assume the church can only be false or at least not what it claims does a dis-service to people like Richard Bushman, Teryl Givens, Brant Gardner and 100’s of thousands of others who are as intelligent and well informed as anyone. When it comes to Bushman, givens, ect… I also think each of them went through stage 4 and are in stage 5. In fact I think there are proably as many faithful believing satge 5’s as there are middlewayers and complete loss of belief.

I’m sorry, I definitely didn’t mean to offend at all. I could rephrase my conclusion as: “given the evidence I know now, it seems most likely that the church is at most *more* true than other paths, but not the *final* truth”.

But, you have a good point. It’s obvious that you, Ray, and a couple others have reached a stable state by coming back to believing that it’s still God’s true church, just that things are weirder than you thought before.

Would making the realization/decision above prevent me from getting where you guys are? In theory, couldn’t I end up coming close to you by adding beliefs one at a time? I just don’t want to wait around for that to happen, especially as evidence currently seems to be pushing me away from your conclusion and not closer to it. By wait around, I mean that I struggle to develop spiritually when I don’t know who to trust.

[embwbam]

You guys are awesome. Hijack away, I’m good.

[embwbam]

I feel better already. You’re all right, there’s nothing to be worried about. God IS too good punish us for being confused. Life is too confusing for him to act otherwise. I’m willing to trust that it will be alright.

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Embwbam (Isn’t there something more poetic we can call you? How about Em?),

You can shorten it to emb. I usually use my full name, but I’m not ready to “come out” yet. (The intertubes live forever, you know). It’s an old anonymous handle I use that references the cartoon, the Tick. Bonus points if you can guess how (Amusingly, the other place I use it a lot when downloading TV shows).

Thank you all so much for your kind words. My concerns kind of melt away after posting and hearing from all of you. They haven’t been resolved so much as they seem insignificant.

[embwbam]

Mapleleaf, your answer was particularly helpful. Thanks you hit my concerns on the head.

Man, listening to you guys really makes me realize that I just need to let go and have faith again. It’s like you said, Poppyseed – I have to open my heart. My concerns kind of pale when you all talk about your faith. That’s a good thing

[embwbam]

Thanks for all your help. It certainly resonates with me that God will be plenty willing to forgive me for doing what I feel is right. I guess a part of me is worried that I’m simply completely wrong about God, and he’s just as the TBMs describe. In that case, it doesn’t matter what I think, God is allowed to let me go for anything he wants. I think there’s some truth to both ideas about God.

The guilt-voice I’m hearing isn’t my own, it’s Sunday School and Priesthood lessons, where people talk incessantly about how serious our temple covenants are. Obedience and Consecration are things that I’m not really living right now – let alone attending the temple at all.

So, I don’t actually want to stop wearing garments or attending church, it’s just that I’m not even able to go there.

I suppose there are no easy answers either way. Maybe the best way to think about it is that I wouldn’t even want to live with a God who was willing to punish people for making the wrong choice on religion in a world as confusing as this is. Then either way, I’m ok At least the TBM God has great places for those deceived by the philosophies of men, and I don’t think the scriptures support splitting up non-celestial families.

[embwbam]

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and I like to take my garments off to exercise, bathe, etc.

Ha! Who wears garments when they bathe? Even if you mean swimming… I’ve heard some crazy garment-wearing stories, but that made me smile. Welcome (newcomer myself).

[embwbam]

Thanks Guys –

Here are the threads for the current two issues I’m struggling with right now.

http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1172

http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1171

@Ray – I’m still struggling to figure out IF I should be rebuilding my spirituality. I feel like I need to center my faith before I know what to do, but I’m not getting anywhere very quickly.

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