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Ray said: Quote:Hopefully, that will help take the nasty edge off that I have seen develop over the last couple of years.
I hope the excommunication does that too. I admit I haven’t really felt I have a dog in this fight, my FC is very new and I haven’t followed JD in the past. I do know the FB group can be very negative and bitter. I have watched more as a fascinated gawker driving past the scene of an accident–eyes open, a bit shell-shocked at what I was seeing, and watching for the aftermath of twisted wreckage. That being said, I have been saddened by the many comments I have been reading online, not just yesterday, but in the weeks leading up to this.
There really do seem to be two camps forming, those who support JD, and those who decry his doubts, methods, and dare I say, his followers. Of course we don’t hear the middle roaders, like Ray, and others here. Perhaps they are the more silent majority, but I have noticed a tone from both sides that is shrill, angry, and accusatory. As a new person to their FC, I am hurt and disappointed that my fellow Saints see me as someone of no faith at all, as a person who is weak in testimony, and a member who has been fooled by Satan. They don’t seem to understand at all why the admission on Race and the Priesthood hurt, or why the revelation that JS didn’t even have the plates present when he “translated” them bothers me, and the wives and the lying. I could go on, but all of you on here understand. Perhaps we are developing Factions, much like those of the Divergent book series. At least that is how it feels, and there is little understanding from those who see us as weak and misled. For me, the culmination of the JD saga is much less painful than the harsh words cloaked in “love” from those who see me as blind and weak.
Tim, I have been through a divorce before, and you are right, it is painful. But my husband is not the father of any of my children so that issue is a little easier to resolve. Not to mention that I have kept many of my assets as separate property, so the financial part is more easily worked out.
Interestingly, I had an ephiphany yesterday about all of this. My husband refuses to sign a durable power of attorney in the event he loses capacity. I signed one giving him power of attorney, and his refusal to sign made me angry. I felt he didn’t trust me, yet I showed trust in him. The ephiphany came when I realized that the pain this causes me (which he doesn’t seem to care about) is not much different than the pain my FC causes him. For some reason, it feels like we are on more equal footing. That has helped me immensely. I can’t explain why, but perhaps it feels like we are now “even steven”. Call me juvenile, but no one wants to hurt alone. Perhaps he can’t help his feelings of distrust ( he claims it isn’t distrust, just that he will never need it), any more than I can help the feelings I have about my FC. For whatever reason, I have felt more peace yesterday and today than I have felt in a while about my marriage. Maybe we are just equally distrustful
😆 Whatever, it is manageable for now.Hey Nibbler, that was my favorite painting too. It hung on the wall in my dining room for many years. It was a wedding gift. It didn’t survive long in my home after the divorce 😥 But, the humility of the man always struck me, and it gave me a sense of peace and gratitude.My current favorite is called “Cathedral of Commerce” by Rob Gonsalves. It is a painting where the inside of a cathedral, including an altar, give way to a city skyline. My husband described it as “where your heart should be, and where it often it”. It’s pretty cool. Here is a link to it:
http://thinng.com/1093-rob-gonsalves-cathedral-of-commerce It’s funny so many of you mentioned praying together. My husband and I used to pray together every night, and we read the BOM aloud together every night. We finished it a few months back, just as I was starting my FC. He wanted to start over reading it again immediately and I just couldn’t stomach it. And that’s when we quit praying together. I don’t miss either activity. And I understand the feeling of praying and praying for something to change, and not knowing what to say. I have reached the point of just being able to say “please help me God” over and over. We don’t discuss my FC, because he really doesn’t want to hear about it. We had a long talk about a week ago about trust, and I felt better for a day or so, until I realized that he doesn’t trust me as much as I trust him. That was a punch in the gut.
And so I have heeded the counsel given here–I don’t nag him about my beliefs and my FC, always wanting to talk about it, I don’t bash on his complete orthodoxy, I avoid subjects I know will be contentious (SSM), and I try to trust in my HF. I am not any happier today than I was a month or a year ago. I know I need to be patient, and also to decide if this is how I want to live my life. I know I want more. I have had more in the past and I want it again. I am not sure that God really cares if I have it again, and it is ultimately my decision. I have to get through the next 4 years. After that, I can decide what to do, both regarding my marriage and my participation in the church. It may be a long 4 years……
Please think back to a time when life didn’t seem so hopeless. While it may be so hard now, it won’t always be like this. I too have had fleeting thoughts of just ending it all, but for me the guilt of leaving my children without a parent is enough to make me change my mind. Honestly, I have heard that many of us think of suicide at some time in our lives, but if you are dwelling on those thoughts, or making plans, I beg you to talk to someone. You don’t need your wife’s permission to seek counseling. Just get it on your own, for your own sake. I know marriage is hard. This isn’t my first time around, and just last week I was making plans for how I would manage should I have enough of this marriage. And believe me, last week I was very close to leaving. Divorce isn’t the end of the world. It isn’t a walk in the park, but sometimes we have to admit that the marriage isn’t working. I believe that divorce is a better option than suicide, every single time. It sounds as though you are living with mental and emotional whiplash. All I can say is hang in there, tomorrow may be better, and if you have children, they need you. I know because my children don’t have a father. He died a few years ago. Every event that should be happy is bittersweet because he is not there to share it. I don’t tell you that to make you feel guilty, but to let you know how much a dad matters, even when he is not perfect.
You matter. I understand the feeling that prayers aren’t answered, but you matter. To your parents, siblings, and if you have them, mostly to your children. Don’t give up all your tomorrows because today is crappy. It won’t always be crappy. For what it is worth, I will send good thoughts your way. Know that you are loved by many, and life will get better. And get professional help. It can get you through the dark times.
Holy Cow!! That felt good
😆 I have come to the same conclusion. I rarely pray on my knees anymore. We pray in the morning with my daughter before she leaves for school, but that was a habit started a long time ago. I’m not going to let my FC change that for her. I don’t pray for specific things, like you, mostly for patience and comfort. Although I will admit tonight to praying about my marriage. I don’t really expect an answer on that, because honestly I would like it to just be over. But I can’t do that because of my daughter. And so I go through my day talking to God, telling him that I love him and I know He loves me. I express gratitude for my children and my other blessings, but as far as asking for things? That seems pointless now. It hurts less now to admit that, I guess you begin to accept the new normal. Whatever that is.Thanks all for your advice, it really does help. What is unique here is that my husband is not the father of my daughter. I really could walk away with no strings, but my daughter does love him as her own. He came into her life after her dad died. I admit that knowing there are no legal ties, is has had me daydreaming about what it would be like to undo the marriage. But, I have been through divorce before and it is ugly. Very ugly. Right now we just don’t talk about the church, or much of anything really. The chasm between us is growing, although I do get occasional glimpses of closeness. I know it it better to look for the good in him instead of dwelling on the negative. I am sure that this divide is hurting him as much as it is me. After all, he married a woman with great faith in the gospel, and now he is married to some woman who doesn’t really care if SSM is legalized, and who leaves church early many weeks. We no longer have couple’s prayer or read the scriptures together. I know this is hard on him too. Again, thank you all for the advice, it reminds me that just because we don’t have what we once did, it doesn’t mean we can’t find something else that is meaningful. That right there is a great piece of advice, and I will focus on that.
SamBee asked:
Quote:I’m guessing the local water is drinkable -could they not use jugs?
That is the sad thing SB, apparently last year they saw some people pour the leftover water from people’s cups into the pitchers on the tables, then take them to the kitchen, dump them out, and put them back into the cabinets without washing them. Ick. They didn’t want to have to wash the pitchers before use to make sure they were clean.
:crazy: Our water is drinkable, but not terrific. We often use gallon or larger jugs to fill the pitchers, but if you use enough ice then it tastes better. There are ways to really keep the waste down, but they didn’t want to spend 10 minutes washing the pitchers. Great example right?Shawn, From the POF:
Quote:By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation.
The Family: A Proclamation to the World
When I have a daughter who comes home from YW on Sunday and asks me why I am the primary breadwinner and dad is not, because they have discussed this POF, we all know how it is being taught. Yes, there are exceptions, but it states first that fathers are to provide the necessities and mothers are to nurture. Yes it says to “help one another as equal partners”, but they have assigned gender roles by their first statements. If they really meant that the roles should be shared equally, they would never have assigned roles, they would have said parents should work together to provide the necessities of life…..etc. But we all know what they see as “normal”, and those of us who are the “adapters” often feel a bit like an outsider. I had to explain to my daughter that in our family, we have adapted the POF to fit our needs. And, it seems, to adapt is to find some way of doing something outside of the ideal. That’s how my daughter sees it, and that is how it is generally taught, at least to our young women. And that just perpetuates a woman’s guilt for working and not being home with her children. I say, enough guilt. Let’s strike the paragraph or have it reworded. Now who wants to write SLC a letter and request that?
🙂 Mom, that’s an interesting essay. I am not sure that I feel as disappointed in ERS as some of the commenters there. She believed what was being taught in the church at that time–that the dark skinned people had been cursed. For her to have believed otherwise would have been to reject the teachings of the prophet. Just one, because I don’t think JS taught that. All of us are flawed, and most of us are deeply flawed in one way or another. It seems that we should just stop “pedastalizing” people. (Someone else’s comment, not mine
😆 ). I think in this instance judging goes both ways. We can judge someone harshly for the things we see in them that are weaknesses, or we can judge them to be something better than mortal. Either judgement is unfair. We will be left thinking less of them than they deserve or set them up for disappointing us and perhaps others later. In the words of Avril Lavigne, “why did (we) have to go and make things so complicated?”🙂 One last thought–maybe it’s time to stop judging people of the past by the morality of today? Our behaviors are based on the societal norms of our times; to place the expectations of today on people who lived a couple centuries ago is unfair. Just my two cents anyway.
My view is a little different. I have watched several couples make this work. In fact they lived within separate boundaries and got permission to attend the same ward. The benefit? The kids have continuity in their church experience and relationships. If you aren’t going to expect your kids to attend a different ward every other week, it won’t matter which ward you are in. But, your kids will feel the brunt of the divorce if they have to alternate wards they attend. This is not as important when they are young, but imagine as youth. They won’t get to serve much in leadership. They will be planning activities and never be quite sure if they can attend. It makes it difficult to forge close relationships with the other youth. I watched my kids struggle with this very issue. Finally, when they were in the youth program I told them to choose a ward to attend every Sunday. The were so relieved when they didn’t feel like the outsider who was only there half the time. I told them it didn’t matter which ward they picked, I would support them. My son picked his dad’s ward and my girls picked my ward. It wasn’t based on where the parent attended, it happened to be the ward where they had the closest friends. They also attended that ward for their weekly activities. One thing I learned from my divorce–the kids hurt the most. I would do whatever was necessary to help your kids cope with Sundays, and just learn to deal with it. After all, we are the adults, and it isn’t always about us. I wish you the best as you figure this out. Divorce is the ugliest thing I ever endured, and I was widowed after I remarried.
I agree, there is NO gray area. I suppose if there were, plenty of people would push and push until they end up far off the edge, but I suppose that is what agency is about. I also agree about the culture of guilt. When I got married I had a very difficult time going from “this is absolutely forbidden” to “no problem, anytime”. It was a very difficult transition for me, especially when I had crossed the line a few times in the past and been through the repentance process. That made me feel even more guilty. Unfortunately my new husband simply couldn’t understand, and both of us were so inexperienced it was not good at all. Sad to say, I know that contributed to the end of our marriage a number of years later. Would being able to experiment prior to marriage have made a difference? I doubt it. As for masturbation, I have come to believe it is not a sexual sin. It can be, if you are using pornography with it, or it is causing you to lose focus on real life, or it is the predominate thought or part of your day, but occasionally done, I have no problem with it. Couples who are apart, such as a job or military deployment, could benefit from said act just to make sure their appetites and needs are met. It is a whole lot better than cheating. I would never feel the need to “confess”. And “phone sex” between husband and wife? Nobody else’s business.
Maybe if the church didn’t make sexual desire so evil, we could have more fulfilling and normal sex lives with our spouses. Perhaps admitting that masturbation is a normal desire, and kept within appropriate bounds it is acceptable, would help our youth (and adults) not to feel so sinful. I still remember my first husband telling me about the talk to the priesthood about the “factories”. You don’t want to get those factories fired up because that’s all you will want to do, work in the factory all day. I almost laughed, but he was serious. These attitudes are a holdover from Puritan times, and I really don’t expect the men who head the church on earth to admit that some of these attitudes are cultural, and not necessarily doctrinal. I don’t even discuss masturbation with my kids, but I talk to them all the time about the evils of porn. I think we will find the next generation has fewer hangups than we do
🙂 I feel your pain. Our ward Christmas dinner they served us bottled water. In individual bottles. I looked at the sea of bottles and said aloud, “are they serious?” When the event was over I went around and with the help of one other person emptied the half full bottles into a container and put the bottles in a separate garbage can. No one thought we should be recycling. First of all, we pay a deposit for every one of those bottles. Second, there are plenty of people in the ward who could use the extra cash from turning in the bottles, and the most important point? The idea to reduce, reuse, and recycle is exercising a righteous stewardship over the earth and all things on it that The Lord has blessed us with. THAT is the argument I use, because few people in my ward really want to think about being green. We have a dumpster, just as all commercial customers do, the rest of the residents recycle by separating into green waste, recycling, and trash. It’s good for all of us. 
Ah, heaven is defnitely for real:) There is great comfort in the near death experiences that people share. I have mentioned before that when my husband died I spent a great deal of time reading about them. They offer so much comfort to those who are left behind. I have found some on YouTube also, and they are fascinating stories. With so many with similar experiences, I believe heaven is real. And the thing I take away from them all is that God really is love. Where does this leave us? I think we are free to doubt, as long as we don’t shout those doubts from the rooftops and the bloggernacle. I am not as familiar with JD’s stories and podcasts as many here, but it seems the issue is the public nature of his doubts and discussions. If he had quietly had issues and never decided to “help” others who had them, I don’t think he would be in this situation. I use the word “help” because there are many who won’t think his approach is that helpful in staying in the church–they would have wanted him to take an apologist’s viewpoint. As I have said before, I will continue to doubt, but I will keep that on the down low, and suffer in a bit of silence. Places like this will become more important and more known. These places will become our sanity. But, I believe the exodus will continue, and will pick up in pace. And that exodus will be said to be one of the signs of the times when even the righteous shall fall. We will be looked at as fulfilling prophecy and as an indication that the second coming is getting closer. In the words of one of my favorite temple characters, “well, we shall see”.
