Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
My wife has asked me several times, “Why can’t you just choose to believe?” I’ve tried to explain, but most of the time it just turns out badly and she and I both end up feeling frustrated and hurt. I don’t know that belief is a choice, although I can choose how I act based on my belief (or lack thereof). That action (to me) is faith and is a choice. So I can choose to exercise faith, regardless of whether I believe something or not. I would like to be able to “choose” to believe. But since I can’t, I’ll just excercise the particle of faith I have in spite of my lack of belief in certain doctrines, truth claims, and practices. I really have a hard time doing this – my tendancy is view things as black/white, so a lot of the time I would like to just throw the baby out with the bath water.
I think for some, having a spiritual witness is enough to “choose” to believe (probably more than one should). And that works for them. I get it. But not everyone is wired like that. I guess I’m just a lazy learner and want to rehearse my doubts with other doubters.
One thing that has helped me is Jon Ogden’s Book, “When Mormons Doubt.” (
https://www.amazon.com/When-Mormons-Doubt-Relationships-Quality-ebook/dp/B01D7T93CQ ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.amazon.com/When-Mormons-Doubt-Relationships-Quality-ebook/dp/B01D7T93CQ nibbler wrote:
It tells me that Nelson doesn’t understand the position of the doubter. Perhaps he’s a lazy learner.:angel:
I have one word to describe President Nelson’s understanding of the position of the doubter:
MyopicSamBee wrote:
The RLDS/CoC name change was I believe more understandable.
Once again, The Community of Christ is way ahead of us!
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. This has helped me a lot to see things differently and realize that there are many different ways to be “all in.” Or not, but still have a choice to be constructively engaged at whatever level makes sense to you. For example, I am “all in” with trying to be like Jesus. The rest doesn’t really matter so much.
DoubtingTom wrote:
I realized I can’t be all in when at the most basic fundamental level I simply don’t believe. It felt too fake going every week and pretending to be orthodox.However, when I was still attempting this, I found the following website to be very helpful.
Here is an unorthodox believer who seems to be all in. His nuanced approach works for him and I had high hopes that it would work for me. Ultimately I couldn’t make it work but I haven’t shut the door completely. If I were to be “all in” again, this is the approach I think I’d have to use.
DT,
Thanks for this. I think you and I are a lot alike. My belief is not binary, but I think it leans more toward non-belief (and skepticism) than belief.
I think the only way I could be “all in” is to have a very nuanced view of how the church is “true” like Richard Bushman, Adam Miller, Greg Prince, Patrick Mason, or the author of the churchistrue blog. I hope that I can have such a testimony someday, but right now, I don’t.
Old Timer wrote:
I am all in – but I define those terms for myself and don’t care if others define them differently.
Curt, I’d like to be all in on my own terms. Can you share what some of those terms are? PM me if that is more appropriate.
dande48 wrote:
This reminds of President Uchtdorf’s phrase “Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith”. It’s one of the very few things I disagree with him on. I think doubts are important. VERY important.
I agree with you. I resonate with almost every talk that the Silver Fox has given, but this is not one of my favorites.dande48 wrote:
Beliefs should be grayscale. They should be based on an aggregate of factors. Your confidence in them should change as you learn new things. I would absolutely be weary of anyone, your bishop included, who has 100% confidence in anything. You can, and should, be willing to change your mind as new evidence presents itself.
Thanks for the info and videos on Bayes Rule. The world we live in is not binary and this is good reasoning to be continually questioning what you believe, based on new evidence. People who are “all in” are much less likely to do this.dande48 wrote:
Can you be “all in”? Sure. But I don’t recommend it. How do you make it work with your spouse? Everyone is different. There was a blog post a couple months ago on lds.org, which had some interesting insights.Who Do I Choose -God or my Husband?
I really like that blog post. Can someone send it to my wife? (she would not appreciate it coming from me). My bishop even mentioned this post as we were talking this week (he is related somehow to this couple).nibbler wrote:
There’s probably a lot of overlap with discussions on cafeteria Mormonism but shooting from the hip… no one at church isallin. There aren’t enough hours in a day. So you magnified three callings.
You cleaned the building on Saturday.
Helped with that move.
Spent 6 hours indexing during the week.
Took the missionaries to their appointments on Wednesday night.
Baby sat for enrichment night.
Did an endowment session on ward temple night.
Read scriptures every day for an hour.
Ah… but you watched the commercials during the Superbowl. Gotta be all in with the Sabbath observance.
Great point. Everyone is a cafeteria Mormon. (notice my inappropriate use of the term “Mormon”)nibbler wrote:
On a more serious note, I’d want clarification on what “all in” meant. I wouldn’t ask the bishop for clarification, but what does it mean to you to be “all in?”
Because of your point above about cafeteria Mormonism, I think being “all in” to me is more about commitment. In spite of everything wrong with the Church or its doctrine or history, it’s about sticking with it through good and bad. Maybe it’s like a marriage relationship – “for better or for worse.” Just as in marriage, you don’t always have to agree with your spouse or never have arguments or have your own opinions or feelings. But you do have a commitment to love and support each other throughout your life (or through eternity).Good marriages have trust and respect. I’m certainly lacking in trust right now with my relationship with the Church, and I could certainly use some marital therapy to remain “all in.”
I’m one of those who was freaked out by my first temple endowment experience (in the mid-80’s). I’ve never liked it, but I eventually learned to get used to it and not get so bothered by it. I really tried to prepare for it (temple prep class, talk with dad, reading The Holy Temple), but I was woefully unprepared for what took place on that day. It was nothing like what I expected. At all. It was the cause of my 1st faith crisis. I attended the temple regularly for 30 years, although I didn’t like it. Since my most recent faith crisis, I have no desire to attend the temple at all, although I do have a recommend. Don’t feel guilty if you don’t enjoy the temple. If you find it helps you spiritually, go and enjoy it, but if you don’t, then don’t go and don’t feel guilty about it.
Some people (like your bishop) just don’t get it and they probably never will. His answer (that you weren’t prepared) might apply to some, but there are a lot of other legitimate reasons that not everyone loves the temple experience.
DT, Best wishes to you and I have enjoyed your posts. I think I’m in a similar place as you now on my faith journey, and I haven’t spent as much time here lately at StayLDS for that reason. For family reasons, I still continue to participate in church, but my heart isn’t in it. Like you, I don’t agree with many of the doctrines and I’m not sure I believe in any of the truth claims. I’m not sure if I even believe in God anymore.
I am glad you are at peace and are happy. I wish you the best on your next steps as a pioneer on your faith journey!
Welcome Dkormond! Yes, you are definitely not alone! I’m struggling too with many of the same things as you. And I am hanging on (barely) and I stay engaged mostly for family. I finally got some relief when I gave myself permission to not try to believe everything anymore and not try do everything we are asked to do in the Church. My experience with local leaders has generally been good, but I’ve lost trust in the leadership of the corporate Church and now see the brethren more as mortal men who are not often led by God, in spite of what they think.
I really struggle with the Church culture, but I am surrounded by it and can’t really escape without committing social suicide. I’m with you on this.
I don’t have a PhD in science, but I think like a scientist. I have a hard time reconciling conflicts with religion and science and I’m right there with you on the DNA and BOM essay. I’m pretty skeptical of pretty much every truth claim of the Church, although I’ve really tried to just believe and act in faith. Recently I’ve become more comfortable with my skepticism.
I’m right there with you about church history as well. There are a lot of skeletons in our past. I first started becoming aware of them on my mission and I just couldn’t make it work. I ended up coming home after only a few months because I just could not make it work and felt very uncomfortable trying to convince people to join a church that I was so uncomfortable with. I tried to put my doubts on the “shelf”, but that was not sustainable for me. I finally gave myself permission to do some real investigation and went down the rabbit hole and will never be the same again.
I think it is wise to be careful what you reveal to your bishop or others about your beliefs. Some will be understanding and caring, but others simply don’t know how to be helpful to people like us.
I hope you enjoy it here! It is a safe place to be.
Shawn, Getting divorced is one of my greatest fears. I admire you for your integrity to follow your conscience and let the consequences follow. I’m sorry that your marriage didn’t work out, but I hope this will lead to more peace and happiness in your life. Best wishes to you!
Such great advice here! DT, I just wanted to let you know how much I identify with what you’re experiencing. I had a very similar experience in coming out to my TBM wife after the November 2015 policy was announced. I didn’t want to say anything, but she could tell that I was really bothered by something. When she asked me why I couldn’t just believe, I even used the same Santa Claus analogy (not a good idea). She was (and still is) so hurt by my unbelief.
It sucks. I can only echo the advice of others – Love her, let her grieve, give it time, it’s you that has changed, not her, focus on what you do have in common, etc.
But don’t keep your frustrations bottled up. That’s what we are for! I’ve found this and other places to be very healing to express things that I can’t express to my wife. Hang in there!
Welcome 51Mag! I enjoyed your introduction and am glad you posted here. Bill Reel was a bishop as well when he went through his faith crisis. I don’t envy your position at all. I’ve never been a bishop (although I have been in a bishopric and I was the son of a bishop), and I share your concerns about balancing church and family responsibilities. We have way too many meetings!
I can definitely relate to burnout, and I think it has been a major factor in my disaffection as well. You’re in good company here. I hope you find it to be a helpful and safe place for you!
Great post, Syme! My bishop (who I’ve opened up to about my FC) sent me a text recently, quoting scripture in D&C 46 about earnestly seeking spiritual gifts and recommending that I ask specifically to know that the Lord has restored his gospel through Joseph Smith, and promised me that if I would sincerely ask in faith, God would give me this gift.
I know his intentions were good and sincere, but this really bothered me. I don’t think this is one of my spiritual gifts (and I told him so). I’ve sincerely sought this gift in the past, but nothing but doubt has come.
Far more important to me now than whether Joseph Smith restored God’s church on earth is how I can find beauty and goodness in my life now, and share beauty and goodness with others. I find beauty and goodness in the life and teachings of Christ (at least mostly), and I can find it in my local ward too. And I can find beauty and goodness in many things outside of the Church too!
