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TataniaAvalon wrote:
We actually talked about this in my SS class last week. The teacher said according to the laws at the time Nephi was totally within his rights to kill Laban. How true that is idk. Any law of Moses authorities on here? There was also a by common consent blog on it several weeks ago.
Looks like there are a couple recent BCC posts about this (Nephi Killing Laban/Abrahamic Tests)
http://bycommonconsent.com/2016/01/07/a-book-to-kill-for-bom2016/ http://bycommonconsent.com/2016/01/11/abrahamic-tests/ My view is pretty much in harmony with the Abrahamic Test one.
I’ve also been told (I don’t remember when, maybe in Seminary?) that most people from the Middle East have no problem with the story of Nephi killing Laban. The only thing that they can’t understand was why it took him so long to decide to do it. Must be a cultural thing if that is true. I certainly don’t get it.
LookingHard wrote:Orson wrote:For me it all goes to show the church is very human, with specks of divine. Once I fully embrace that reality I don’t have to worry about the human part, I can focus on those wonderful little specks.
Let me pick (maybe too much) at your words. “Specks” of divine to me sounds like you are saying the vast vast majority is not divine – as in very rare to see the divine.Part of me wants to say this is equivalent of staying with an abusive spouse because they occasionally show true love. I realize that is an exaggeration as I do not see most church stuff as abusive (but certainly not saying there is some abuse and bad things). There are many benefits for being a member of the church.
A few months ago, Bill Reel used this very analogy (of an abusive father) in a post on Wheat & Tares:
http://www.wheatandtares.org/17936/does-the-church-need-an-intervention/ LookingHard wrote:Don’t take my asking on this as just bashing. I am seriously trying to figure out if I can really do as this website is named and “stayLDS” long term. I am having great side conversations with a few of you on this site that seem to have figured out how to do that. I thank you for taking the time to help me.
Is this something I might grow out of as I continue and just try to be more patient? At one level I do feel I have passed from my “pissed at being lied to” phase and I can see good and bad in the church. But as time goes on it is less about just being patient and I feel less general desire to associate with the organization. Part of me desperately wants to find a way to stay, but I don’t feel I am going to be doing it long term. The lack of church leadership or peers in the church admitting that there is much of anything less than perfect in the church just makes it harder for me to not stand up and point to the elephant in the room.
I feel like there is something I am just not getting that some of you have. And let me thank you again for many of your efforts to help others like me see/feel/do as you do. I really appreciate this site. I do think I might have left (at least stop attending) by now if I didn’t have this place to explore (and vent).
Unlike LH, I am still in the “pissed at being lied to” phase, but I am not sure if I can do this (StayLDS) long term either. I also feel like I am missing something else that some of you have too. The good things about the church do seem like tiny specks to me right now among its glaring faults and human frailties. I do have the desire to believe, but that’s about it.
I do appreciate this site because I have nowhere else that I can go to vent my frustrations without fear of severe repercussions to relationships I have with people I dearly love. I appreciate the helpful comments I’ve received from so many of you here. It’s one of the only things that helps me keep at it a little longer…
I’m a fellow Mormon podcast junkie and yes, I too have listened to every podcast in the Year of Polygamy series. I’ve always had a problem with polygamy, and listening to this series did nothing to help me feel better about it. I do not think that this practice was ordained of God and although we did officially abandon the practice in 1890, it still haunts us and influences us today. The series is very well researched and presented, IMHO.
I find it quite ironic that our church that has so much non-traditional marriage (1 husband and 1 wife) in its past is so against SSM.
DarkJedi wrote:[Difficult to discern, revelation sometimes is. Clouded by our own thoughts and feelings it is. See through a glass darkly we all do.
đ DJ Should change his avatar to this:
[img]http://billystrean.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/yoda.jpg [/img] DarkJedi wrote:LookingHard wrote:DarkJedi wrote:I don’t understand God, either. The one thing I have concluded is that if God does interact with people, he will never, under any circumstances, interfere with the free will (agency) of any individual. That’s why the Holocaust occurred, why child abuse occurs, why there are murders and suicides, etc.
FWIW, my actual belief is that God doesn’t interfere because he doesn’t interfere/interact at all. I also don’t believe God is as all knowing and all powerful as LDS theology teaches – so I’m not sure if he did give the revelation that he knew it would be leaked.
I am also reaching a frame of mind that strongly parallels DJ. A loving God that is very hands off because we need to learn. It does not seem like the best configuration as it allows SO MUCH suffering of innocent people. But that is where I am at.The only alternative that jives with reality for me is to move to a position that their is no God.About a month ago I was exploring that feeling just a bit, but it was soooo depressing. Yes, to the highlighted portion. That very idea is why I believe what I believe about God – the alternative is that there is no God, but the dilemma is I believe there is.
I have to agree with DJ and LH on this one. Both ways of looking at this (1. God exists, but doesn’t interfere in our lives or 2. God doesn’t exist) are pretty depressing to me right now.
Does anyone know if the original wording of the policy in Handbook 1 has been amended since this all blew up? Or is the letter with clarifications (dated Nov 13, 2015) supposed to provide that clarification? https://www.lds.org/pages/church-handbook-changes?lang=eng I can’t imagine why the original wording wouldn’t be changed unless it had already been sent to print, but that is unlikely because of the firestorm that ensued once the policy was changed originally. Why would you not want to amend the original wording of the change? The last I heard, the original wording of the policy change was still there.
LookingHard wrote:Once again Gregory Prince gives what I feel is a clear picture
http://rationalfaiths.com/biology-vs-behavior/http://rationalfaiths.com/biology-vs-behavior/” class=”bbcode_url”> Bravo, Greg Prince!
My favorite part is how he ended this piece:
Quote:I never dreamed that I would be in the church standing up for what I felt was right amid the voices in the church telling me that I am wrong.
Isn’t this ironic?
LookingHard wrote:A bit of a tangent here, but just saw a comment on
http://rationalfaiths.com/the-exclusion-policy-is-the-church-being-led-astray/#comments ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://rationalfaiths.com/the-exclusion-policy-is-the-church-being-led-astray/#comments Quote:I find it interesting that we now find out this was a revelation received by Monson, which was declared by Nelson, after being âclarifiedâ by Church PR, after explained by Christofferson, after published by an apostate, after leaked by an anonymous source, after published in a document most members canât see.
Godâs work is mysterious indeed.
đ lolWelcome LIP! I think I could have written much of what you wrote in your intro. I’ve lived the TBM life, but I don’t think I’ve ever been a true believer, although I’ve always tried to avoid anything that was less than faith-promoting, until recently (the past 5 years or so). Now I’ve gone down the rabbit hole and I don’t think I’ll ever see things the way I did before. I’m still outwardly active and faithful, but inwardly I am not even sure what I believe anymore. This is a safe place where you can go to talk about anything that is bothering you. If you’re like me, there are very few people I can talk to in person about these things without causing pain and grief in relationships.
The latest policy (or revelation) on gay marriage really has rocked my world. Up until then I mostly respected the brethren, although I didn’t think they would never make a mistake. Most of my struggles were with Church history (polygamy, polyandry, Book of Mormon historicity, Book of Abraham, etc.), but now I have doubts that we are being led by men of God at all. Or even if God exists.
I hope you find some peace here. There are many good people here with open minds and a variety of unorthodox views that struggle, but make Mormonism work for them. I hope it can work for you too.
An excellent post from Jana Riess on Flunking Sainthood: Quote:So what does this mean for the many, many Latter-day Saints who have indeed prayed about this, fasted about this, and similarly âwrestled at lengthâ to get the Lordâs guidance â only to receive a totally different answer than the prophetâs?
An answer that affirms Jesusâ teaching that we are to allow little children to come unto him unhindered?
An answer that reminds us that children are never responsible for the alleged sins of their parents?
And an answer that recognizes the inherent sacred worth of LGBT persons â and their marriages?
I am in that camp. I sit here heartbroken that the Church is not only standing by this regrettable policy but enshrining homophobia as Godâs will.
Count me in that camp too!
LookingHard wrote:I really like every time I listen to Greg Prince. I think he really understands many things better than the church leaders do. I sure wish he would be asked to come to have a chat with the top church leaders.
:thumbup: Amen! I enjoy Greg Prince too. Listening to the podcast now.I can relate! The thing that gives me most hope right now is that there are more options for young people who desire to serve, but just aren’t cut out for a proselyting mission (Young Church Service Missionaries). If I would have had this option 20+ years ago, I would have taken it. I think about the church so much differently now. I know that we have leaders, many of whom are great people, but even great people have flaws (sometimes surprisingly big ones) that can damage our faith and testimonies. For example, I have a very different picture of Joseph Smith now in my mind, and I think he was both brilliant and deeply flawed.
One piece of advice I got from several people here when I first posted was to take it slow and focus on what you
dobelieve. I think this is hard to do in the state you are in, but it is great advice. Bugger, Thanks for biting!
I’m a little older (40-something), but I can definitely identify with your feelings about missions and church culture. My mission was a horrible experience and I came home early. I thought I had pretty much put that behind me, but I’ve recently had two of my own sons return home early too for mental health reasons. The second one is now completely inactive and an unbeliever now, and I’m struggling with what I really believe as well. I’ve started to question just about everything – not just what happened in the past (church history), but what happens today (such as the church policy on SSM).
I really have no one I can talk to in person that understands, so StayLDS has been a great place for me to vent and gain strength from others who struggle with various issues about the church, yet desire to remain LDS.
Yes, Thanks Ray for posting this article. I’m still bothered by the policy, but this helps. I particularly enjoyed this part, and I think it applies to a lot of us StayLDSers: Quote:To my straight brothers and sisters, to the parents and grandparents, the siblings and uncles and aunts and cousins of gay Mormons, I ask: have faith. Stay firm. Hold onto whatever core of your testimony you can cling to. The Church is not perfect. Our commitment to it is nothing more nor less than the acceptance of an invitation to engage with one another in a process of becoming perfected. That process, that faith, will perfect us. It will heal us and save us â not just in some theological sense of finding Heaven above, but in some very root, down-to-earth, fundamental sense of making us whole, physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Things will get better. We will get better, both individually and collectively, if we hold on to each other.
