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dtrom34 wrote:
Ha! I know. I should have come up with a less extreme example.
I’d love to see it though!
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Quote:Perhaps this conference we’ll hear from an apostle, “Yes, Brigham taught the blood atonement, and people unjustly had their heads cut off. We don’t know why he did this.”
I’m pretty sure you will never hear something like that come from an apostle. Especially in GC.
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nibbler wrote:Rob4Hope wrote:Well, I want some answers.
Frankly I’d rather come up with my own answers. Looking to leaders (or Runnells or whoever) to supply me with the answers would deprive me of an opportunity to grow.
I wish I were where you are, Nibbler. I’m afraid I’m more with Rob4Hope here. I guess it all depends upon where you are in your faith transition, (and maybe your personality and tolerance for ambiguity).
I think JR’s questions started out as genuine, but as he didn’t obtain answers to those questions, he became more unbelieving and apostate. FAIR and other apologists have tried to answer the problems and questions put forth in the CES Letter, but most of their answers are not satisfactory to me, at least. I don’t feel like I have to come up with my own answers, but I do want to be able to see these problems and questions from a perspective that feels good (or at least ok) to me.
I’ve dealt with issues or questions that I don’t have good answers for in the past by placing them on the shelf, and just realizing that I don’t have a good explanation for them. That has mostly worked for me for years, but my shelf just cannot hold up anymore under the weight of all the things that just don’t make sense to me. I’m finding more and more things that I need to put on the shelf almost every day. I’m not even trying to find them or dwell on them, but they are everywhere!
What do people like me do, whose shelf has collapsed and we have no testimony to hold it up anymore?
😥 I am surprised that Jeremy Runnells hasn’t been up for a disciplinary council until now. The only reason I can think that it hasn’t happened up until now is that the Church didn’t want to draw attention to the CES Letter. I agree with DJ that this will not generate near the publicity that that Kate Kelley or John Dehlin generated, but I question why the Church would want more bad PR or attention to the CES Letter now. I’m sure there is more to the story than appears on the press release on cesletter.com, but why was his request to have the DC delayed until March 15th due to a family member in hospice care originally accepted, then changed to Feb 14th of all days?
I have no doubt that JR will be excommunicated for apostasy. But he started out with some sincere questions and just wanted some answers. He didn’t get those answers from the CES Director, and I haven’t found satisfactory answers to many of the same questions.
Will it do the Church more harm to ex JR by drawing attention to the CES Letter and causing more TBMs to spiral into a faith crisis? Or will it solidify the policy of excommunicating those who publicly express doubts and oppose the brethren? One thing is for sure – cesletter.com is not going away.
Roy wrote:This last discussion is interesting. Marriage has clear documented benefits. Married people tend to live longer, be healthier, wealthier, and happier. And yet all is not a bed of roses. Marriage might not fit all people at all times and seasons of their life. Sometimes marriage is unhappy and the cause of extra stress. When marriage ends it can leave a long term financial burden in the sense of child support and alimony. I have a metaphor for life in the church somewhere in there.
:clap: I’m really struggling with this myself right now because it seems that almost all I can see in the church right now (especially the corporate church) is negative. I see all the poop and pee all over the floor and not the cute little puppy. I don’t want a puppy in my house! Over at NOM, they have a nice succinct page that gives some good reasons to stay. I don’t get this feeling very much from the forums over there, but even as an unbeliever, these are good reasons to stay if you can see things from a different perspective:
http://www.newordermormon.org/why-we-stay.php And then there is the document originally written by John Dehlin, and updated by Brian Johnston on How to Stay after a major challenge to your faith on staylds.com. It’s interesting that this no longer works for either of them:
http://staylds.com/docs/HowToStay.html Quote:There are two key ingredients to staying in the church: you have to like it, and you have to believe in it. If you do not like being a part of the church, this article’s suggestions will probably not change anything. Your religious life should bring you value and satisfaction. It should do something positive for you. If you like being a part of the church, but have trouble believing in it the way you used to, in a more literal way, then the suggestions in this article might be helpful.
I’m really trying to make this work. Those that have managed to do it long-term – what’s the secret? If you do not like being part of the church, is there any hope? How can I like it or even just tolerate it? All the poop and pee all over the floor is driving me nuts!
Although I haven’t read it, you might find Mormon Enigma interesting to get Emma Smith’s perspective after Joseph was killed. http://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Enigma-Emma-Hale-Smith/dp/0252062914/ marty wrote:And if you define faith as “believing in something for which there is no evidence”, then I realized that I simply don’t have faith. It’s just not a part of my makeup. And I don’t see any inherent virtue in it, either. I don’t see how believing in something for which there is no evidence somehow makes me a better person. I don’t think that makes me cynical. Now that I’m allowing my brain to enter these new thought patterns, I’m realizing how insane it is to presume that God would put us here, allow us to be bombarded with 100,000 different “one-true” belief systems, none of which has any verifiable evidence, and that he’s expect us to find the exact right one and then force our minds to believe in it. And all the while, certain of our brains (mine, certainly) have a STRONG disposition against believing in random things. If I could really and genuinely force myself to believe things on demand, I would. My life would be SOOOO much easier. But it’s not.
I didn’t realize how much faking faith was a drain on my soul. Now, I’m agnostic about most things, and I realize that it’s totally 100% okay. I can live in the moment, and in a way, I feel like I cherish my time and relationships even more. I’m filled with wonder at the magnitude of the universe, at the near 0% chance of my own existence; I’m in awe of the powerful feelings we feel as human beings, and our ability to connect with each other in a way that brings joy and happiness; I love music even more now for it’s ability to express depth and emotion; and in general, I’m filled with more wonder and amazement at how this all works than I was before.
Marty,
It sounds like you and I think a lot alike. I agree that there is a big difference between skepticism and cynicism. The difference is attitude. I’m definitely skeptical (thus my name here), but I don’t want to be cynical. How do you keep a positive attitude? Does it get easier as your faith transition progresses beyond the anger stage?
I’ve always sympathized with Thomas and think he gets a bad rap too. Some of us are just not wired to accept things on faith without any evidence. My shelf simply can not hold one more thing to accept on faith that goes against what feels right or true to me.
How do you and your DW reconcile your skeptical beliefs that break her heart? This is something I really struggle with and it’s hard for DW and I to even talk about.
Great topic here! I look forward to more discussion.
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LookingHard wrote:Ann wrote:mom3 wrote:
With my friend her spouse started out on forum very much like this, then joined a closed facebook group, then learned about apps you can download and so on.Sad, but true. For everything under the sun: “There’s an app for that.”
Where is the one for a faith crisis?
I want that faith crisis app!
:clap: Joni, I am so sorry. I have come very close to being in your shoes, and I think I understand what you must be going through. It really sucks, but you are not to blame for this.
Heber13 wrote:
I also agree with Roy…that it feels like a late night Infomercial with a promise to “fix” something, but like I said, it is too easy and simplistic and doesn’t really fix it for me…kind of like those products I can buy on TV for 3 easy installments of 19.99.…
I just don’t believe there is a “quick fix” or a one “tool set” for all.
Like a diet or exercise program, people may have their “thing” that motivates them or helps them to stick with the process of getting healthier…but there is no silver bullet…in the end…individuals need to take a journey and decide what will work for them and what won’t.
Well said! I don’t think there is a quick fix either to a faith crisis, but anything that can help you look at things from a new perspective can be helpful, especially when the tools you are using just aren’t working for you.
Roadrunner wrote:dtrom34 wrote:Luckily my wife is pretty much in the same boat.
Welcome to this forum – it’s almost therapy for me. You are fortunate (blessed?) to have a wife in the same boat. I’d give almost anything to have a better connection with my wife when it comes to my faith transition. I look forward to your comments.
Amen! You are so lucky to have your wife be on the same page with you.
Great intro and welcome to your post-lurking days! I look forward to hearing more from you.
azguy, I feel for you! I’ve had quite a ride myself, and I’m still on the ride.
What helps me the most is to try to focus on the positive times and just know that there are going to be times when it sucks. You’re not alone though, although sometimes it really feels like it.
I hope things get better for you!
Without a doubt, I’m one that would push the button if I could. I would love to be 100% certain and know “beyond the shadow of a doubt” whether the church was true (or not). I feel like I have pushed the button (or at least tried to), but realized that there is no way to be 100% certain of anything. I can definitely see lots of reasons that would seem to indicate that the church is not “true” (whatever that means). But I can’t say that with 100% certainty. It’s definitely not black and white.
My wife is in group #2 (ignorance is bliss). She loves the church so much and believes it is good for our family, regardless of whether it is true or not (although she sincerely believes it is true). She wants to stay as far away from the truth button as possible, and place complete trust in the Lord and our leaders. She does not understand my point of view and why I can’t just have faith. It causes a lot of conflict in our marriage.
For me this problem is something I struggle with every day of my life. I want to know for sure, but it’s not worth risking or destroying relationships with the people I love the most. I’m trying to find a way to push truth buttons but not destroy relationships with those that want to remain in ignorant bliss.
