[Fatherof4husbandof1]

Old-Timer wrote:

Maybe so, f4h1 – but does it fail the test if the test is graded on a curve? Just a different way of framing it, but I was in a different church today, and . . . I’ll just refer back to my question.

There are great services out there (not the one I attended today), but do the churches pass the test any better than the LDS Church – especially when it comes to the overarching theology?

Kind of depends on the viewpoint of the person who creates the test, I suppose.

I agree, it does seem to me that other churches fair no better at passing that test either. I must also admit when I wrote that post I was still a little upset at the perpetuation of the same old party lines that I hear again and again at church. Your point is valid and a good counter balance to my previous post.

Especially tonight as we had dinner with the Elders and they shared a message with us, I felt a profound peace and love. I have more questions than answers right now. But as far as less active members go, I feel better able to accept them and serve them even if they never come back to church.

F4h1

[Fatherof4husbandof1]

Quote:

[quote=”SamBee

This is interesting, but I still really feel the BoA is the smoking gun. I’d rather he channelled it, like the Book of Moses. The Egyptological evidence is damning in the extreme, and can’t be brushed aside.

SamBee, can I quote you on that? Oh ya I just did.

I knew of some of the “things we don’t talk about” at church, before I saw the documentary, “The Lost Book of Abraham,” but this is the one that shot me through the heart. I don’t think many of the members that try to “spin” it or apologize it have watched it carefully as I have many times.

I agree with you 100% that “The Egyptological evidence is damning in the extreme, and can’t be bruched aside.”

F4h1

[Fatherof4husbandof1]

Hey Pickles (nice name, does it have a meaning?)

Study, pray and attend church? This seemed to work for me for many years. I am amazed at how sure I was. Now I look back and feel I was……. like Brian said,

Brian Johnston wrote:

still young, idealistic and stupid? 🙂

If I had to do it again, I would study a lot more, and ask better questions, and never forget that I am probably still idealistic and stupid. Now if I could only be young again!

F4h1

[Fatherof4husbandof1]

bridget_night wrote:

Ray, I really don’t wish anyone this kind of pain or crisis of faith either. I just wish they would be more understanding as you said.

I guess people like our group would rather know the truth than live in a fantasy world. But, sometimes I do miss the fantasy world.

This is not a crisis of “faith” to me, but more a crisis of “truth”. I do wish all members of the church had all the information and not just what the “Leaders” deem is needed, the white washed version.

I was taught the churches methods for evaluating what is true, and what “truth” is. I taught it for two years straight out of the approved discussions and went back to the MTC to help others learn to teach it, much later when I learned and continue to learn the “dark” side of the church, I use that same method that I was taught by the church to evaluate truth and IMO the church fails the test

f4h1

[Fatherof4husbandof1]

SS and SD those are some great ideas! Obviously many of us are in the same boat. I had a hard time listening again, how JS underwent that operation on his leg, “without any brandy” as if it would have been a sin, or tarnished his soul. That was about all I could take. I went down the street to walmart got a box of franzia and went back to church in a much better mood. Actually enjoyed it after that.

f4h1

[Fatherof4husbandof1]

bridget_night wrote:

I have let my bishop, his wife, and our home teachers know several times how I would like to be treated. I had sent them the link to John Delhins utube, “Why Members leave.” It was excellent in explaining how we should be treated. Our bishop had come over that one time last October to see where we stood and he said he would email me to apologize for how he treated me when we first tried to move into the ward. He has never written me or apologized. I had written him and his wife how much it hurts to be treated like you are bad or unworthy people for have doubts or questions about the church. How different things might have been if right in the beginning this bishop had had some empathy and said, “it must be difficult to be the only active member and we would like to set a good example to your family. And why don’t we set up an appointment and talk about why you have doubts and concerns and then be very understanding.” Instead he treated me and our family like we were really screwed up people for having doubts. Everyone has left us alone like we were a plaque they could catch since then. I just feel like people must be really insecure in their own faiths that they can’t even talk about ones doubts with them. Sometimes, I wish they could feel a crisis of faith just to understand how we feel.

BN How did sending the link to “Why Membes leave” work out for you? I sent the link out to many members in my stake, that I know well, under another name to see their response. One possibility is that many members have heard a few of the historical truths that caused them to have doubts. They have had to do a “Patch job” of faith to cover those doubts and it was so disturbing to them that they can’t bear to go back.

How would I like to be treated? Not like so many are treated! Like they are apostate, sinners, unfaithful, weak etc..

f4h1

[Fatherof4husbandof1]

Cadence

I wish more people would ask the questions you have. I think it is hard to know how accepting a member will be. But I think Ray is right that if they feel that you love them then they won’t reject you outright, with some exceptions. I believe there are more non TBM’s out there that have questions and don’t know where to turn, that was me less than 2 months ago. I think it is possible that this is our “path”. You have all certainly helped me! IMO you are all masters of the “force” and you know enough about the “dark side” to help me and others from falling into the path of self destruction. (pardon the Star Wars reference) We have all seen the person who looses faith and spirals out of control, never to recover.

I hope my wife would agree, but it seems to me that since finding John Dehlin, which lead me to StayLDS.org I have let go of so much anger. I hated to go to church, I wanted to call BS in SS every week. My wife would see me clinching my fists and grinding my teeth.

Back when this all started for me, I was praying everyday to have stronger faith and a stronger testamony of the truth, thats exactly what I got, it just wasn’t the answer I was expecting.

cwald thanks for sharing, when a sincere person asks a question and recieves an answer I like to learn with them.

f4h1

PS Cadence off the subject but I’ve been wondering, if you put the USS Enterprise against an Imperial Battle Cruiser who has the advantage? IMO the Federation ships seem to have much better shielding than the Empire has to offer and photon torpedos against a poorly shielded ship means game over!?

[Fatherof4husbandof1]

Old-Timer wrote:

Will it be accepted? In a nutshell, that depends largely on you.

Of course, there are MAJOR differences in congregations (like cwald’s and mine, for example), but, as a general rule, “We love him, because he first loved us.” It’s hard for most people to reject someone if they feel that someone truly loves them – and is willing to help them in whatever way possible without being a butthead about differences.

I don’t feel like I add much to these posts at this point, I appreciate the wisdom that I find here, nice post Ray! :thumbup:

f4h1

[Fatherof4husbandof1]

Quote:

So after some 35 years of praying, studying and straining to get any kind of spiritual insight I have finally got an answer to the nature of the church and God…..

Cadence, to save space I didn’t quote your entire post. I agree whole heartedly—preach on!!!!!

f4h1

[Fatherof4husbandof1]

Cadence wrote:

I think cwald is about the smartest person here. That must make you an intelligence beyond that.

Amen, Cadence. Many non traditional mormons have to battle on the church front as well as the spouse front. Thanks for letting cwald spend time with us, good to meet you.

F4h1

[Fatherof4husbandof1]

SilentDawning wrote:

a wife who gets cranky if I don’t go.

I feel your pain man!! Sometimes going to church is, for me, the path of less suffering! rut row!

[Fatherof4husbandof1]

cwald wrote:

The other myth/tradition that always makes me wonder is the whole need to bury the dead in their temple clothing. I suppose some members might say that the clothing will be “resurrected” right along with the body. Yeah.

and that all the others will be naked! is what I heard.

f4h1

[Fatherof4husbandof1]

Quote:

There is an overwhelming cultural theme, at least here in Utah, about our ability to ‘keep’ someone here aka ‘alive’, simply by our wishes or desires. I hear it all the time. “We just can’t figure out why grandpa can’t ‘go’; there must be a reason he is staying.” “Our sister is keeping Dad here, because she’s not ready to let him go.” Or conversely, “Mom, it’s okay to go; we give you permission!”

Dad just died last July, a lot of this happened with my sisters and mom. I am quite stoic about death, when they would say things to me like this I would try not to laugh. How about this one, “God has a special need for him/her “on the other side” or if the death was a young person, “He/she was just too good for this world” Okay, what ever!

f4h1

[Fatherof4husbandof1]

SamBee wrote:

I’m amazed no one picked up on my original point. It depends what the sin is. Do people really have a uniform feeling about every single sin?

Sorry SamBee, I have limited RAM, I desparatly need an upgrade :crazy:

I feel increaslingly guilty depending on my personal belief(what I was taught at church, semiary, on my mission, FHE, GC etc.) of how serious the sin is.

f4h1

[Fatherof4husbandof1]

Fatherof4husbandof1 wrote:

What am I left with?

After reading more of all your great posts and thinking about it a little more……. I have 0 faith, and would have 0 commitment if I were not a father of 4 and a husband of 1. That is what I am left with, and that is 100% of my commitment.

f4h1

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