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DevilsAdvocate wrote:
The real problem is that what Mormons think is a sin is not necessarily what God or most non-Mormons would probably consider to be a sin in many cases. In fact, I have a hard time imagining why anyone including God should really care if someone drinks a cup of coffee.
I agree DAMy problem is that I was taught for 38 years that sin was acting against God’s will. Only to learn that It may not have been God’s will at all. What am I left with? A very high degree of mistrust, and a cynical and critical view of the cause that once I championed and defended. What is sin? I may know more of what it isn’t than what it is.
f4h1
DevilsAdvocate wrote:I guess I just need a better reason to justify some of these expectations and heavy demands than simply the idea that I should believe and do all this just because the prophets said so. The problem is that they also said Zelph was a white Lamanite, Adam is God, men will never go to the Moon, M-word makes people become gay, etc.; so I just don’t see why exactly I am out of line to take most of what they say with a grain of salt.
yup! pass the salt!
f4h1
cwald wrote:As far as callings are concerned —- I am EQP with a two year expired temple recommend for god’s sake. ONE thing I do KNOW – many callings are done out of desperation. Absolutely.
cwald, IMO, calling you to EQP may have been the best call your bishop ever made!f4h1
Quote:There was definitely an attempt to manufacture spiritual experiences for the kids some worked (the woman’s pull) and some did not (blessing and burying a doll on the side of the trail, this one was really weird). I think it would be great to be in a position to influence what goes on in Trek. You could get rid off some of the weird stuff. Most of the kids were there to have a good time and hang out. It was the adults and leaders that were trying to make it spiritual. The kids I talked with brought up when they thought the adults were trying too hard.
I agree, We do trecks in Texas also, they are a blast! Some of the Adults try too hard when all they have to do is be there and the “Spiritual” expierences take care of themselves. I probably had as much or more fun than the kids.Quote:The SP during his prayer before we all get on the bus to leave brings this up and says something to the effect of “God give us your worst we can handle it”. The kids all thought he was crazy and made fun of it the entire trip. The SP got wind of the kids mocking him and during his talk at the post fireside publicly chastised those that made fun of him. It was great, one of those really uncomfortable times in church that we all look forward to to break up the staleness.
Priceless…f4h1
Flower I love it. You know how “We mormons” are about new names. Hey, Brian gave me(abreviated) my new name on my first post! Way to make me feel welcome!!!!!! Best of wishes with the new Business!
F4h1
mormonheretic wrote:Perhaps the rest of the scroll will be found in the future, and Nibley’s theory could be vindicated. I’m sure it’s not a popular scenario here, but I’m just saying that some of you might want to keep an open mind to that possibility.
I agree completely, if I am to learn from my(many) mistakes of the past, I need to keep an open mind. Good point mormonheretic.
f4h1
SilentDawning wrote:Given your goals — if I was in your shoes, I’d do something highly visible that gets you off the service project list. Show up at a service project, volunteer for something. Volunteer to help with an activity. Be really steady at Church for 5 or 6 weeks. Maybe get up and do a love-you-mony in Sacrament meeting, avoiding the things you don’t believe, but commenting on the wonderful people who have served your or something sincere (whatever feels right). I honestly believe its best if you just get off the radar, particularly with how woven the Church has become in your family. Even if it means suffering a bit. That’s what I would do, but what do I know?
SilentDawning, this advise is great! (much better than my attempt at comic relief). In fact, yesterday, (Sunday) I showed up early. Smiled a lot, spent time in the foyers (sp?) Had several sincere conversations with several people. Felt really good. Much thanks to all of you here!!!!
f4h1
DA I couln’t agree more! That is why I reciently posted my observations regarding guilt on “the M word” post. JW’s feel terrible guilt about recieving blood to save their life. For the rest of us, guilt is never a consideration! We are just glad to be alive!
For the Seventh-day Adventist bowling on Saturday is a guilt trip in the making. For the rest of us, felling guilty about bowling, or horse riding, or hunting etc on Saturday would be absurd. But come Sunday, and the table does a 180 degree turn.
What about my Jewish friend at work, one piece of bacon and he feels like he had offended God? The rest of us (non vegitarians) eat bacon, ham and pork chops with nothing but a fork and a smile! yum, yum
My conclusion is that we feel bad when ever we don’t act as we have taught ourselfs to act. Without regard to whether or not our beliefs are true. It may be that simple and have nothing to do with the spirit, or the HG. Perhaps we all feel bad when we disobey Gods commandments. But as far as the commandments of men are concerned, that may be where some of us feel bad and others do not?
f4h1
f4h1
Oh Flower, You may want to consider posting a for sale sign out in front of your house. Once your are an “Official” project like it appears you have been declaired, there is no turning back. You should expect a full-court-press from the nurery all the way to the stake presidency. You must ack quickly! Go to another ward for one or two Sundays and request your records be transfered. After that, you’ve got to really do a good job of fakinging it back at your home ward and perhaps you’ll slip off of the radar screen by the time your records come back. All I can say is, “Good luck!” F4H1
Old-Timer wrote:Good thing that it doesn’t have to be what
some Church leadersclaim it to be, then. 
it’s been said that defining IMMUTABLE Mormon doctrine is like nailing Jello to a wall. I agree –
and I like it that way.For your enjoyment:
“Mormonism at last defined”( http://i.imgur.com/KR55e.jpg )Nice one Ray,
😆 Where do you find this stuff?GBSmith I really like your question, and DA I really like you answer. Thank you both. When I first started watching the video on YouTube, I had just linked to other church sponsored videos from lds.org. I saw the video there and began to watch. At that point, I thought it was church sponsored. I fully expected it to show that JS had done exactly as I had been taught, and firmly believed! I was so excited, thinking now I can show people, not just tell them, that I know this church is true. As I watched I felt sick, and hollow inside. I once thought to stop watching, but the evidence was, in my belief, fair and without gross bias. That was the day my mormon world view started to crumble, I began to reexamine everything.
from DA’s post
Quote:“Each of us has to face the matter-either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.”Gordon B Hinckley
If being the one and only “true church” means the church is exactly what is claims to be, or it is a fraud. Then in my opinion its an easy call, IMO it is fraud!
f4h1
Ray wrote,
Quote:“Fwiw, that is part of what Brian is addressing, I think – since most “random thoughts, dreams, opinions” in former times was not distinguished from revelation – and I dare say that much, if not most, of our canonized scripture might be described accurately that way.Thanks for this thought. My black vs. white church upbringing would never have let me come up with this possibility on my own. When I read it, I just took a deep breath and enjoyed the new perspective!
f4h1
When dealing with M. I think that feeling guilty is perhaps the most destructive aspect for most people. Guilt is an interesting concept for me. If the source of guilt were God, then wouldn’t equal sin produce equal guilt for all of his children? For example..
If a Jehovah Witness accepts blood in the ER to save their life, they feel guilt, shame, and as one JW told me, “Your saving yourself now, but your going to hell later!” etc. Other people receive blood all the time, and If you asked them about feeling guilty about it, they reply, “Why would I feel guilty?”
A Seventh-day-Adventist goes bowling on Saturday and feels guilty, other people bowl on Saturday all the time guilt-free.
If a Mormon drinks a cup of coffee he/she may feel great guilt, a need to confess to the Bishop and surrender their TR, punish them self for the sin by reading “The miracle of forgiveness” (please, anything but that). Other people, including myself, enjoy their cup or two of coffee and feel great!!!!! A complete absences of guilt.
Equal actions for different people don’t produce equal guilt.
What about the guilt of masturbation? Is it a learned, self imposed guilt trip?
P.S. Is M. one of those words you should always capitalize?
f4h1
Wow, This is more entertaining than SNL(just read the entire thread). My wife keeps coming in asking, “What are you laughing at?” The standard answer for the last month had been cwald(a sincere thanks), but doug and a few others are confederate on this thread! On a serious note, My dad had a severe mental breakdown when he was a senior in high school. He told me about it, I think, to help me not fall into the same trap. I cannot over emphasize how bad it was. He was institutionalized for a short time after and was not allowed to serve a mission etc. because of this. He told me the reason was that he felt so guilty and so sinful because, as he said, “Seminary presidents don’t masturbate.”
Where was the idea placed in his mind so firmly that it was so terrible and so wrong, that he nearly took his own life that night? IMO It’s not the 99 boys out of 100 that M. that scare me, Its the one that doesn’t, there is something wrong there! IMO. Okay, that very, very small group of boys that doesn’t M. are probably just fine(not going to judge unrighteous). But IMO as many have already mentioned on this thread, the most damaging thing for most of these boys is likely the guilt, the going to hell feelings, feeling like I’m a freak because I M.
My real concern regarding this thread is, will I ever be able to hear the phrase, “All things in Moderation” without laughing?
:lolno: We should talk more about addiction, its gotten a rap. IMO We are all addicted to a number of things–different thread….
f4h1
